Retribution and Holy Tanking in Wrath

All things related to the expansion

Moderators: Fridmarr, Worldie, Aergis

Retribution and Holy Tanking in Wrath

Postby Zonzede » Tue Jul 29, 2008 9:59 pm

It may not be as far fetched as you might think.

Retribution

Pros
Righteous Fury is 90% holy threat bonus baseline now, so speccing Improved RF isn't necessary (but one probably would anyway for the damage reduction)

Shield of the Righteous is Baseline, as is the new Divine Protection.

They bring their own reliable CC to instances by speccing Repentance.

Divine Storm would be pretty insane for a tank actually. It hits exactly the same as prot's Hammer of the Righteous, exchanging bonus threat (ouch) for automatic self healing (yay!)

With tank threat being based first off of weapon damage and AP, Crusader Strike would be getting the stats it needs to scale well.

Sheathe of Light allows the standard tanking seals to function properly when geared for tanking. Failing that, you could always use Blood.

Ret would actually have MORE passive damage reduction than prot by speccing both Improved Righteous Fury and The Art of War.

Even while grossly overgearing instances, Judgments of the Wise will alleviate mana issues by returning 60% of every damaging judgment as mana.

Prot Talents that a ret would want anyway (Divine strength, imp RF if pvp, etc) are also very useful for tanking, and could serve both purposes easily.


Cons
You lose access to Prot's superior deep talents for threat generation. Sure, Divine Storm and Crusader strike might be passable, but they won't keep up with the potential of Holy Shield and Hammer of the Righteous.

The Stamina talents are too deep to pick up. This alone is a deathblow to aspiring MT Retadins XD

Cannot access Thunderjudge or Ardent Defender. Both staple MT skills.

Weighing those out, ret will not be Main Tanking any time soon, as it should be. But, a decent spec will make them a pretty heinous offtank for fights which require an extra.

Then, you think about 5 mans, and even 10s to a degree. Those deep prot talents really aren't terribly needed at this level of content, and ret's ability to restore mana to themselves while contributing heals while grossly overgearing the content may make for a surprisingly competent tank in that situation.
Last edited by Zonzede on Tue Jul 29, 2008 11:42 pm, edited 2 times in total.
Image
User avatar
Zonzede
 
Posts: 440
Joined: Wed Jun 06, 2007 8:56 am

Postby Zonzede » Tue Jul 29, 2008 9:59 pm

Time to look at Holy

Pros
Holy Shock will be obscene in the single target threat department.

Shallow, important prot talents are just as available ito holy as they are ret.

Infusion of Light will allow for the Holytank to heal them self significantly while tanking, Instany Holy Light after every Holy Shock crit. This will also be aided by the several Crit oriented abilities in the tree.

Blessed life isn't a very strong mitigation talent, but it's far better than nothing.

All 3 trees have a Stat > Spellpower talent now. For Holy, it's Intelligence. While this isn't going to be found on Tank gear anymore, there's still a buffed Divine Intellect shallow in the tree, plus whatever little they get extra on the weapon they use.

Divine Illumination eases the use of the mana hungry Consecrate

Purifying power is suprisingly good, reducing the cos of Consecrate and increasing Exorcism and Divine Wrath's crit chance by 20%. In Northrend, It shouldn't be too hard to find some Undead or Demons to make use of that against.

Enlightened Judgments and Judgments of teh Pure make a Holy paladin more accurate and faster attacking. Both fine things to have to maintain threat.

Beacon of Light, when precast would be a freakish threat tool, in addition to decent healing for the first part of the pull.


Cons
Fewer mitigation talents even than ret in the tree

Tanking gear isn't as synergistic with Holy as it is for Ret. While it can be worked around, it's still an impediment.

No way to regain mana outside of spiritual attunement. Prot has this problem too, which makes overgearing an issue we still worry about. Ironic that Ret has the solution.

Requires speccing into prot for better effectiveness, and with goodies in Ret being desirale, many Holy pallies might not want to invest in prot.

No access to Stamins talents, etc, same issues as ret.



Holy falls short, mainly because of Gear synergy. While it may be very interesting to see how far a Tank geared holy could both heal AND tank an instance at the same time, I don't think it's going to work very well outside of normal 5 mans.



Overall, I'm happy to say that I think paladins are now a Healing/Tanking Hybrid baselined. Each spec brings its own to each role, and can perform well (or at least, well enough).
I'm very interested in turning my ret into a pet 5 man tank. I think there's actually a good amount of potential in it, if not even superiority to prot.
Last edited by Zonzede on Tue Jul 29, 2008 10:26 pm, edited 3 times in total.
Image
User avatar
Zonzede
 
Posts: 440
Joined: Wed Jun 06, 2007 8:56 am

Postby Fridmarr » Tue Jul 29, 2008 10:04 pm

Blizz has said they want DPS specs being able to tank from a threat perspective and prot having more mitigation and utility.
Fridmarr
Global Mod
 
Posts: 9667
Joined: Sun Apr 08, 2007 1:03 am

Postby Sabindeus » Tue Jul 29, 2008 10:24 pm

It was never farfetched. I tanked every instance from 60-70 as Ret and I damn well will do it from 70-80 when levelling in WotLK.
Image
Turn In, an NPC interaction automator - http://wow.curse.com/downloads/wow-addo ... rn-in.aspx
User avatar
Sabindeus
Moderator
 
Posts: 10473
Joined: Mon May 14, 2007 9:24 am

Postby Zonzede » Tue Jul 29, 2008 10:30 pm

Sabindeus wrote:It was never farfetched. I tanked every instance from 60-70 as Ret and I damn well will do it from 70-80 when levelling in WotLK.


Granted. But really looking at Ret especially, they might be actually superior to protection at tanking 5 mans and heroics now. Possibly even 10 mans, especially when gear reaches a certain point. Ret only gets better with harder and stronger gear, while Prot has to still hold back some to remain effective.

Not sure about you, but I think it's a bit odd that Ret has an extremely good shot at being a better tank in some situations than the Tanking spec.
Image
User avatar
Zonzede
 
Posts: 440
Joined: Wed Jun 06, 2007 8:56 am

Postby Ahms » Tue Jul 29, 2008 10:32 pm

I ret tank a lot of 5 mans now with pvp gear, you can pretty much 2h it all with a good healer. now with all this new stuff it should be all good w/ a shield now, and be a lot of fun spamming our shield slam, crus strike, divine storm, mmmm
Paid by the Alliance
To slay all the giants


-Ahms of Mannoroth

Art - http://ahms.deviantart.com/
User avatar
Ahms
 
Posts: 434
Joined: Wed Aug 29, 2007 10:58 pm

Postby Sabindeus » Tue Jul 29, 2008 10:35 pm

Zonzede wrote:
Sabindeus wrote:It was never farfetched. I tanked every instance from 60-70 as Ret and I damn well will do it from 70-80 when levelling in WotLK.


Granted. But really looking at Ret especially, they might be actually superior to protection at tanking 5 mans and heroics now. Possibly even 10 mans, especially when gear reaches a certain point. Ret only gets better with harder and stronger gear, while Prot has to still hold back some to remain effective.

Not sure about you, but I think it's a bit odd that Ret has an extremely good shot at being a better tank in some situations than the Tanking spec.


I dunno, I doubt it. Prot has far better synergy with actual tanking gear. If by "tank" you mean go in PVP gear and have a healer that outgears the place supplying you with infinite health... then ok sure? I guess?
Image
Turn In, an NPC interaction automator - http://wow.curse.com/downloads/wow-addo ... rn-in.aspx
User avatar
Sabindeus
Moderator
 
Posts: 10473
Joined: Mon May 14, 2007 9:24 am

Postby Sabindeus » Tue Jul 29, 2008 10:35 pm

Ahms wrote:I ret tank a lot of 5 mans now with pvp gear, you can pretty much 2h it all with a good healer. now with all this new stuff it should be all good w/ a shield now, and be a lot of fun spamming our shield slam, crus strike, divine storm, mmmm


yeah, see, like I was saying... this doesn't make Ret a better tanking spec.
Image
Turn In, an NPC interaction automator - http://wow.curse.com/downloads/wow-addo ... rn-in.aspx
User avatar
Sabindeus
Moderator
 
Posts: 10473
Joined: Mon May 14, 2007 9:24 am

Postby Zonzede » Tue Jul 29, 2008 10:38 pm

Sabindeus wrote:I dunno, I doubt it. Prot has far better synergy with actual tanking gear. If by "tank" you mean go in PVP gear and have a healer that outgears the place supplying you with infinite health... then ok sure? I guess?


No, by Tank I mean strapping on the same tanking gear that's dripping with Strength, Avoidance and Stamina, taking similar damage when averaging out talents, while still putting out comparable threat. The only difference is Stamina mods really, which are of course a big deal.
Image
User avatar
Zonzede
 
Posts: 440
Joined: Wed Jun 06, 2007 8:56 am

Postby Sabindeus » Tue Jul 29, 2008 10:40 pm

Zonzede wrote:
Sabindeus wrote:I dunno, I doubt it. Prot has far better synergy with actual tanking gear. If by "tank" you mean go in PVP gear and have a healer that outgears the place supplying you with infinite health... then ok sure? I guess?


No, by Tank I mean strapping on the same tanking gear that's dripping with Strength, Avoidance and Stamina, taking similar damage when averaging out talents, while still putting out comparable threat. The only difference is Stamina mods really, which are of course a big deal.


if by "taking similar damage" you mean "taking a shitload more damage" and by "putting out comparable threat" you mean "putting out considerably less threat on single targets" then ok sure.
Image
Turn In, an NPC interaction automator - http://wow.curse.com/downloads/wow-addo ... rn-in.aspx
User avatar
Sabindeus
Moderator
 
Posts: 10473
Joined: Mon May 14, 2007 9:24 am

Postby cougarr » Tue Jul 29, 2008 10:48 pm

I actually think blizz did a very smart thing in that at least from a raiding standpoint it will be much harder for a hybrid to stand in for a fully specced tankadin. For 5 mans, sure ret and holy pretty much always worked but was not optimal.

However, it used to be that when an aoe type fight required a tankadin, a holy pally could put on prot gear and suffice for the most part. Now, with the cost of consecration being significantly raised (assuming it stays at that amount) I don't know if even a holy pally will have the mana pool to consistently put down that spell. A lot of our deep prot talents are about decreasing the cost of consecration amongst other significant spells.

For raids a hybrid would never MT and probably could not seriously OT anything that hit harder than an aoe pack as it would require too many mitigation and stam talents which would require too much sacrifice in the holy tree. Before a hybrid could deal sufficiently with an aoe pack but I think we are seeing a move away from that.
cougarr
 
Posts: 73
Joined: Mon Jul 09, 2007 9:15 pm

Postby Ahms » Tue Jul 29, 2008 10:49 pm

i don't think we're talking about a better tank than prot, but rather a better tank than you can be now if you aren't prot. some more flexibilty in 5/10 mans, or maybe even higher if you're really needing an OT or something
Paid by the Alliance
To slay all the giants


-Ahms of Mannoroth

Art - http://ahms.deviantart.com/
User avatar
Ahms
 
Posts: 434
Joined: Wed Aug 29, 2007 10:58 pm

Postby Zonzede » Tue Jul 29, 2008 11:03 pm

Sabindeus wrote:if by "taking similar damage" you mean "taking a shitload more damage" and by "putting out comparable threat" you mean "putting out considerably less threat on single targets" then ok sure.


No. That's not what I mean.
Really. Look at this.

Ret has access to Improved Righteous Fury. Redoubt. Shield spec. Anticipation. Toughness. Even improved Devotion Aura.
What below that is mitigation?
Ardent defender. Judgements of the Just.
The latter can be supplied by any warrior, or even Feral Druids now.
The former is a hard thing to miss out on yeah, but if healers are on the ball it shouldn't be working all that much anyway.
In addition, Art of War is 3% more reduction form all sources on top of that.
Sorry, that simply does not add up to a shitload more damage when you're both wearing the same gear.

As for threat? Yeah, Ret will do 'considerably' less. But how much is that exactly, and will that cripple them?
The first thing to consider is the difference in Spellpower. AP > Spelldamage is going to grant greater returns than Stamina > Spellpower with the way tanking gear is looking to be itemized right now. This will close the gap in Ret's favor.
Crusade*. It won't help with Beasts, Mechanicals, Giants, or Dragons. I don't see the first 3 being major types in this expansion.
Sanctified Retribution*. Can't argue with a flat 2%, even if the Prot could get it from a Ret DPSing.
Ret will have a much better crit rate. This will not only grant more threat simply by being a crit, but Vengeance will stack up, resulting in 15% more damage and threat across the board.
It'd probably be most accurate to compare CS to weaving in Avenger's Shield, since they're both on demand strikes. In that case, CS is superior I think, being on a significantly shorter cooldown and scaling much better than the little AS gets. It's not Holy damage, but it's more damage.
Divine Storm vs Hammer of the Righteous. They deal the same damage. HotR has a built in threat mod, how much I'm not exactly sure of. But Divine Storm also heals your group and party, and you can bet you'll get threat for that heal still. It's not a lot and it won't close the gap, but it will lessen it. Plus, it hits an extra target, which is cool.
Shield of the Righteous will be 15% better for prot because of the talent.
There's really nothing I can use to compare to Holy Shield. =D


I think ret tanking needs to be explored further. The potential is there to perform very well. The downfall is the Stamina difference.

*Ty fridmarr for reminding me of these.
Last edited by Zonzede on Tue Jul 29, 2008 11:29 pm, edited 2 times in total.
Image
User avatar
Zonzede
 
Posts: 440
Joined: Wed Jun 06, 2007 8:56 am

Postby Tybalt » Tue Jul 29, 2008 11:11 pm

Zonzede wrote:I think ret tanking needs to be explored further. The potential is there to perform very well.

Considering the amount of DPS a ret pally can dish out now, I seriously hope Ret is not going to be a viable raid tanking spec.
User avatar
Tybalt
 
Posts: 276
Joined: Tue Apr 17, 2007 6:07 pm
Location: Orange County, CA

Postby Fridmarr » Tue Jul 29, 2008 11:20 pm

Sabindeus wrote:if by "taking similar damage" you mean "taking a shitload more damage" and by "putting out comparable threat" you mean "putting out considerably less threat on single targets" then ok sure.


Actually, I think Ret's threat would be every bit as good as prot threat. AP scaling and AP -> SD, Criticals, Vengeance, CS, Divine Storm, Sanctified Retribution, Crusade, Swift Retribution, Judgements of the Wise for nearly unlimited mana, those all add up. Plus shield slam is baseline.
Fridmarr
Global Mod
 
Posts: 9667
Joined: Sun Apr 08, 2007 1:03 am

Next

Return to WotLK

Who is online

Users browsing this forum: Exabot [Bot], Google [Bot] and 1 guest

Who is online

In total there are 3 users online :: 2 registered, 0 hidden and 1 guest (based on users active over the past 5 minutes)
Most users ever online was 380 on Tue Oct 14, 2008 6:28 pm

Users browsing this forum: Exabot [Bot], Google [Bot] and 1 guest