How threat per point efficient are our WotLK threat talents?

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How threat per point efficient are our WotLK threat talents?

Postby Mithos » Tue Jul 29, 2008 7:25 pm

So, I would like to start a thread about how talents affect our threat per point, in WotLK.

There are some things I want to know about these talents, and some things that I have already thought about:

Reckoning - Our white dmg will now be a LOT higher given that we want a high DPS weapon and we will be getting a lot more AP. Also, all damage seals scale with AP so that's nice too.

Reckoning kind of has some progression history linked to it - a lot of us dumped reckoning when we got into BT because with 60% avoidance it just wasn't up enough to justify it. A lot of us then retook it in Sunwell because it is up all the freakin' time on bosses like Brutallus, Eredar twins and M'uru (side tanking) and I have seen myself sustain 2500 TPS for the duration of AW on Brut, because it was up for the entirety of AW's duration (omen never dipped below about that, I just stared at it the whole time). And ofc, it is up a fair amount in 5 mans and trash etc..

The question is - with normal tank gear in a standard raid instance WITHOUT sunwell radiance, does the reduced uptime get nullified by the fact that our white dmg is doing a crap load more than it is atm?

Divine Strength - How much of an effect is this REALLY going to have? How much Strength/AP are we actually seeing on tank gear? Surely it can't be loads. It is clearly nice for threat AND BV synergy but I am wondering as to it whether it is worth it for 5 points when reckoning is going unloved.

1H spec - This is something I have been thinking about even in current TBC game; is it worth it? If I am sustaining 1600 TPS on Brutallus, where close to 400 TPS is thanks to Spiritual Attunement (it IS affected by RF right? if not, then 200) then 1200 TPS is coming from damage. Ok, so, for 5 points I get 1200/1.05 = 1142.857... TPS, so I am getting 57.3 TPS for 5 points, which is 11.43 TPS per talent point spent. Compare this to:

Imp Judgement - If JoR currently hits for something like 900 in about 640 spell dmg gear, then that means that:

Without imp judge, Judgement gives me 171 TPS;
....With imp judge, Judgement gives me 213.75 TPS.

So improved judgement gives me 42.75 TPS total, so gives me 21.375 TPS per point. So already Imp Judge is almost twice as effective as 1H spec per talent point spent, in my situation.

That said, I have no idea how judgement is doing in WotLK in regards to damage, so I would need some kind of help there.

Seals of the Pure - This seems a weird talent, because really only prot pallies or leveling pallies will take it, and it doens't look amazing, but again I don't know how much DPS seals/judgements are putting out in WotLK so I would need some help. It does look quite nice when you think that it is seals and judgement, however.


Any theorycrafting is welcome, and any mistake pointing out is welcome too :p. Note that my current actual numbers are just coming from my character specifically, just as a rough idea (I'm a pretty standard spec with all the T6 sunwell parts, no spell dmg helm, no twins shoulders, but the expertise cape and neck).
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Postby Grehn|Skipjack » Tue Jul 29, 2008 7:47 pm

I don't know if this will help at all, Mithos. I figured it'd be worth posting.

Seal and Judgement Formula as of 7/29/08

Righteousness
Seal: [MWS * (0.05 * AP + 0.1 * SPH)] Damage done
Judgement: [1 + 0.45 * AP + 0.73 * SPH] Damage done

Vengeance | Corruption
Seal: [(0.034 * SPH + 0.07 * AP) * 6] Damage done. Stacks 5 times.
Judgement: [1 + 0.58 * SPH + 0.36 * AP] Damage done. Increased by 10% per application of the Seal.

Wisdom
Seal: [0.14 * AP + 0.14 * SPH] Mana gained
Judgement: [1 + 0.58 * SPH + 0.36 * AP] Damage done
Judgement of Wisdom: [0.09 * SPH + 0.09 * AP] Mana gained

Light
Seal: [0.28 * AP + 0.28 * SPH] Health gained
Judgement: [1 + 0.58 * SPH + 0.36 * AP] Damage done
Judgement of Light: [0.18 * SPH + 0.18 * AP] Health gained

MWS: Melee Weapon Speed
AP: Attack Power
SPH: Spell Power

If anything is wrong/outdated, I'll edit this post.
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Postby Chevalier » Tue Jul 29, 2008 7:47 pm

Improved Judgement and Seals of the Pure are useless in AOE situations, because I think its best to do a wisdom/light combo of some sort, and judging frequently is not neccessary.
Reckoning is kinda unnecessary in AOE situations...it gives you more mana/life but i'd rather have threat as you can always down a mana pot.
So I tend to look at 1h spec and Divine Strength as better talents, since both will affect all our abilities in all situations.
With judgement on the GCD, will we be able to take full advantage of a reduced CD? That remains to be seen.
Everything is pointing to us having str as a primary stat on tanking gear, (take a look at the lvl 75 BS gear) and 15% will be a big boost.
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Postby Zalaria » Tue Jul 29, 2008 8:06 pm

Chevalier wrote:[...]as you can always down a mana pot. [...]


Careful sayin that!

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Postby Tradyk » Tue Jul 29, 2008 8:13 pm

Responding to these things as a think of them, but right off the bat, in my mind 1-h spec has always been about aoe threat, while reckoning was single target threat. If I'm going to be tanking single targets more, I bring reckoning, if I'm taking groups, I bring 1-h spec.

Here's my thought process: the rough numbers for a 3/5 reckoning versus a single mob is about 12% increased threat, which is fine and dandy. It's a significant amount of threat increase and well worth it.

But when aoe tanking, its next to useless, as it only increases your threat to one target. However, 1-h spec does alot to help your threat versus multiple targets. When AoE tanking, I sit at about 450-500 threat to mobs in front of me, and 350-400 on mobs behind me. Ideally, I never have any behind me, but sometimes you can't get around it. But lets go with the in-front numbers. That's about 200-220 (depending on which threat items I'm wearing) from consecration, 25 tps from retribution aura, about 100 tps from healing taken, and the rest from HS/BoSanc (about 150 tps, for arguments sake). Getting rid of the 100 tps from healing, thats about 400 threat from damage, or 20tps from 1-h spec, or 4tps per talent point. That's not much, but when you consider it's going across, on average, 7 mobs, that becomes 28 tps per talent point, and that's a mighty fine amount.

When it comes to pure aoe tanking, 1-h spec is our biggest threat talent by a significant margin.

The 15% str from divine strength increases our AP, which in turn increases damage from Consecration and Hammer of Righteousness, thus giving a significant increase in threat in both AoE and single target situations.

Seals of the Pure is, like reckoning, a single target threat thing, as, last I heard, HotR doesn't proc seals (still crying inside at that one:(). You'd be looking at as much as a 8-10% increase in threat from damage over time from it, but its very much only on your current target.
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Postby Martie » Tue Jul 29, 2008 11:31 pm

You are forgetting one thing in that bit about reckoning, Tradyk.

If paladins move to using high-damage weapons, then their damage output vs whatever they are hitting will spike quite a bit when using reckoning. Especially when AoE tanking, because reckoning really shines when you are being hit by several mobs.

1 hand spec will be always worth it. Comparing it to other talents is a bit... silly, in my opinion, as they do more then just increase threat generation.
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Postby PsiVen » Tue Jul 29, 2008 11:41 pm

Martie wrote:1 hand spec will be always worth it


If you take 1HWS *and* one of these other talents you will be sacrificing something else important, so... Not necessarily.
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Postby Tradyk » Tue Jul 29, 2008 11:41 pm

Reckoning is more useful on a single target when taking damage from multiple targets, but it doesn't increase the threat generation on those other targets. It helps when you've got single target dps'ers in the group aswell as aoe dps, but that's it really.
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Postby Tahl » Tue Jul 29, 2008 11:51 pm

Reckoning doesn't seem too great compared to the others.

Old reasons:

It gives more chances for the boss to parry your attack, causing parry-hasted swings back at you.

It's random and can't be relied on to proc when you need it, or to frontload a lot of threat before you've been hit much.

It's single-target only.

It scales inversely with avoidance.


New reasons:

SoV looks like the preferred tank seal now, which means you won't get the nice dual SoR procs anymore, you'll just get the paltry 5-stack hit again plus autoattack damage (which doesn't scale from Righteous Fury). It's not a significant improvement for stacking SoV debuffs faster either, now that every swing stacks one anyway.

Since HotR favors a slow weapon (perhaps 2.6 vs the old 1.6) you will likely only get 3 bonus swings instead of all 4.

Retribution Aura has been significantly buffed. 1HWS affects this vs all targets, while Reckoning does not give any new benefits.


Divine Strength seems very strong and scales with our new primary threat stat. Now that consecrate is increased by attack power, this one boosts single and aoe threat too. Also putting points here helps you bypass redoubt+ss if desired.

1HWS is desirable overall and especially during aoe (a lot of time is spent on trash). It's a percentage, so the higher your threat gets the more benefit you get from it.

Seals of the Pure looks nice too, but only affects one single-target ability and may not scale as well as Divine Strength which affects all abilities. It also doesn't get you any farther down the Prot tree; you have to drop 5 points somewhere in Prot to get it, such as Ardent Defender. Good for squeezing out every last bit of threat at the cost of some survivability/utility.

Improved Judgement looks unappealing now that Judgements trigger a GCD, though 1 point may help in preventing cooldown overlaps. Judgements are a much smaller part of our threat now that we have so many abilities in our rotation, and it was a fairly small increase anyway.
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Postby Martie » Wed Jul 30, 2008 12:29 am

I'll admit that my liking for reckoning doesn't come from tanking; I just love the effects of it. Lots of pretty numbers floating around! :)

Now, the weapons speed is irrelevant for reckoning. As long as the mobs don't die during it's duration and it doesn't proc again during it's duration, it's an eight second damage doubling of your melee attacks with a 2.0 or slower weapon.

And though reckoning only does damage versus one target, it's most effective while fighting multiple targets; it procs more.
(I made another thread about that.)

And don't forget that we won't be using a piddly caster weapon anymore. We'll be using strong weapons, and having a high attack power. Both of those add to Reckoning's power.
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Postby Candiru » Wed Jul 30, 2008 12:30 am

In multiple mob situations won't we be tabbing through like a crazy thing keeping a 5stack of vengeance up on all of them?
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Postby Martie » Wed Jul 30, 2008 12:45 am

Dunno, I play a blood elf.
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Postby Arjuna » Wed Jul 30, 2008 12:50 am

Martie wrote:Dunno, I play a blood elf.


same here, haven't used seal of vengeance even once in my lifetime!
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Postby Arjuna » Wed Jul 30, 2008 12:51 am

...but, we probably will...better get my tab-key ready for this kind of punishment...
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Postby Martie » Wed Jul 30, 2008 12:57 am

No, seal of blood will become effective once we get real weapons to use while tanking.
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