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Touched by the Light -- a backwards-looking talent?

All things related to the expansion

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Postby ulushnar » Wed Jul 30, 2008 1:26 am

Kinda what Sarkan said. Most of the WotLK tanking items to date don't have that much Strength on them. Maybe between 30-50% of the Stamina on average. Would we actually have enough AP "to go it alone" sans spellpower without boosting the AP coeffients to levels where it effectively breaks Retribution?
Last edited by ulushnar on Wed Jul 30, 2008 1:39 am, edited 1 time in total.
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Postby Karock » Wed Jul 30, 2008 1:32 am

I read Dorvan as more saying "why stamina to spellpower instead of stamina to AP?" I don't think anyone thinks that stamina to spellpower is a bad thing, just perhaps not optimal.

Also you have to consider that we're looking at mid level 70 blue crafted sets and trying to divine our endgame itemization from them.

EDIT: Or maybe he is worried that we'll have spellpower on our tier sets and so end up with crappy itemized tier sets.
Last edited by Karock on Wed Jul 30, 2008 1:35 am, edited 1 time in total.
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Postby Sarkan-ZdC » Wed Jul 30, 2008 1:32 am

Ulushnar wrote:Kinda what Sarkan said. Most of the WotLK tanking items to date don't have that much Strength on them. Maybe between 30-50% of the Stamina on average. Would we actually have enough AP "to go it alone" without spellpower without boosting the AP coeffients to levels where it effectively breaks Retribution?


That equip will simply not exist in game. In a Ret Set with very low HP and no def/avoidance, maybe. But what kind of a tank would you be then?
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Postby Arjuna » Wed Jul 30, 2008 1:36 am

Karock wrote:
Arjuna wrote:
Karock wrote:
Arjuna wrote:nevermind the healing, our attacks scale with spellpower aswell!

So stamina will be a threat stat aswell...


As far as I know neither our new shield bash nor our hammer of the righteous scale with spellpower?


you are absolutely right...thats 2 abilities...check out the rest...


Two of our main single target abilities...

And no need for an attitude :)


*sigh*

I wasen't intending to push some "attitude" in your face...I was hoping not to have to explain myself because it's bothersome and I'm trying to tank MgT heroic at the same time as surfing...

This game isn't only about single target tanking for paladins, we excel at tanking a lot of mobs at the same time, consecration still benefits from spellpower, all our seals still benefits from spellpower(except SoB/SoM), holy shield only benefits from spellpower...

if you only use ShoR and HotR for tanking, I think you are gonna loose aggro, especially if you won't use a seal!

I wasen't saying anything about spellpower is the bestest thing we have and we need lots of it!!!

But isn't it great that our stamina also increases many of our threat abilities nowdays? not hammer and shield, but a lot of the others we are going to use...
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Postby snowwight » Wed Jul 30, 2008 1:42 am

For the same reason ret has an AP->SP talent? True, you might not be offhealing as prot too much in raids, but soloing is still a part of the game. Also, the question of whether AP or SP scales better is largely irrelevant to this; this is a talent that scales our threat with our stamina; it could be AP, but then they'd probably adjust it to 15% or something. Hell, they could make it +threat% if they wanted.
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Postby Ferrix » Wed Jul 30, 2008 1:42 am

There have been many times I've been healing as prot spec and wished my heals were a little more efficient. This talent now really helps with that. They can't make our abilities scale with only AP because then every pally ends up needing ret/warrior gear. Holy pallys who use seals and consecrate would be getting the short end of the stick, ret pallys would end up using those abilities a little too well and overall it would completely change the class too much. If all our spells relied on AP, what exactly is the point in making them spells then? We end up being too similar to warriors.
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Postby Kilthanas » Wed Jul 30, 2008 1:45 am

I would have to think we'll be rocking an insane amount of stamina at lvl 80 with some raid gear. Which would make this talent a must have I would think. Like won't we probably have 30000 HP?
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Postby ulushnar » Wed Jul 30, 2008 1:45 am

Sarkan-ZdC wrote:
Ulushnar wrote:Kinda what Sarkan said. Most of the WotLK tanking items to date don't have that much Strength on them. Maybe between 30-50% of the Stamina on average. Would we actually have enough AP "to go it alone" without spellpower without boosting the AP coeffients to levels where it effectively breaks Retribution?


That equip will simply not exist in game. In a Ret Set with very low HP and no def/avoidance, maybe. But what kind of a tank would you be then?


You're missing my point.

If we go AP-only, then they're going to have to boost the AP coefficent of our Seals/Consecrate/etc to a higher level to make them do a comparable level of damage compared to the AP/SP mix we have atm.

What happens then when a High-AP Retadin then uses these spells? I'm not saying they'll be better tanks, I'm saying it will boost their already hideous dps to ridiculous levels.

I think the AP/SP mix best fits our current itemisation.
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Postby Kilthanas » Wed Jul 30, 2008 2:14 am

Ulushnar wrote:Kinda what Sarkan said. Most of the WotLK tanking items to date don't have that much Strength on them. Maybe between 30-50% of the Stamina on average. Would we actually have enough AP "to go it alone" sans spellpower without boosting the AP coeffients to levels where it effectively breaks Retribution?


Well I'm looking at

http://www.mmo-champion.com/index.php?page=763

and the strength on those tanking items is pretty high, about 50% most of the time, but occasionally as high as 2/3 of the stam (see the boots).
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Postby Kitsuna » Wed Jul 30, 2008 3:36 am

I think the residual spell damage aspect stems from trying to offer something resembling functionality in the role you aren't specced/geared for.

Let's ignore for a moment the pressing question of whether or not it will be harder for them to balance. All other things being equal, and if it made no threat difference, would we be more "all-around functional" with a hybrid spell damage ap system? Since theoretically the only difference is you get some +heal going on, I think we can say yes.

I see it as an imperfect but passable solution to "baseline role functionality" being harder and harder to maintain as gearing and levels increase. Having no +heal made a difference in vanilla wow. In BC, it makes a huge difference. Imagine now with level 80 epics how pathetic having 0 +heal will be. Similar deal with talents.

It could just as well have been implemented by letting you right-click your tank gear to temporarily turn into tier and a half lower heal gear, or have the game simply give you off spec stats (+heal, weapon damage) in proportion to your main spec stats. The result is the same. The advantage of the current system is you can pick the "hybrid" talent and not feel like you are wasting points boosting something outside your role. That boost is just a nice side benefit to taking a needed talent.
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Postby Mithos » Wed Jul 30, 2008 3:48 am

Well I can push 19.2k HP atm unbuffed in maximum stam gear (1.5k higher than normal gear), and given that wotlk items will have more stamina and less of other stats, that will probably increase a fair bit whilst preparing for and raiding Naxx (probably mostly raiding due to using only 1 stamian trinket). I estimate that we will be seeing 30k HP raid buffed without imp, thats an increase of about 6k HP over the current raid buffed no imp level.

Fort will be a massive stamina boost at 80, so will kings and our 16% from talents. The only thing I know numbers of is Commanding Shout, which doesn't affect stamina, but has been increased to something like 2350 HP, approx 1k more HP than atm.

So there will be a nice big spell damage boost from this.
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Postby Nich » Wed Jul 30, 2008 4:19 am

I like the fact that if I throw on healing gear, the stamina will give me more +heal and I'll crit harder to make up for less healing talents.


But the fact that I'd probably have no illumination and thus would go OOM pretty hard, with the new pot changes (since stacking shaman heal/mp5 gear would negate the bonus healing from harder crits).


I guess it's nice to have there, for both pvp and pve (spot the tard who goes into arena as prot), but if it was to be changed (and they made everything scale with AP, including ret aura and holy shield) then it should be changed to give str and not just raw AP. Which is what most people seem to want >.> Then it's yay to scaling from talents/buffs


(re: PvE) I'm almost curious as to why Ret has their AP converted into SP, really - if we have multiple talents to boost our HP, why not give them multiple talents to boost their AP, rather than a back-conversion to SP to boost what... their ret aura in raids?

I think it's basically a move to help us along while still letting us be hybrids.


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Postby Snake-Aes » Wed Jul 30, 2008 4:45 am

This thread is kinda far from where it started :/ The original Idea was not to remove a coefficient, much less to buff the other. It's just to make it simpler. Ret is thought based on ap, prot is thought based on ap, holy is thought based on sp. Give them all both scalings so they all can solo play and it's all fine and dandy.

There's no need to change any spell. All the universal spells scale with both ap and sp, and both prot and ret have something->sp conversions. ALl you have to do to remove the balance around using both, is to remove the second half for the spec. In prot's case, removing sta->sd and make something->ap. In the end it averages the same. Is it better? Is it worse? I can't tell. All i know is that the original reasoning behind doing those changes, is so our balancing only involves 1 stat, to make it simpler.
Not better, not worse. Simpler.


A Fun side effect is that Strength of Earth > Wrath of Air now XD But both count
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Postby balrogg » Wed Jul 30, 2008 9:55 am

i might be completely off, as im not even in the beta to see the effects of all the changes but...

im under the impression of all these new coefficients/talents are not to balance tankadins specifically, but paladins as a whole, next to other classes. ie, tanking gear with more unified stats to coexist with dks/warrs. as far as paladins go, tankadins are not the only ones using consecrate/sor/etc etc, so there is a need to make scaling these skills with gear along with respective gear sets. ie, they want to unify tanking sets, thus we probably wont be seeing plate with spd. BUT, some spells tankadins use are used by all paladin specs, so its not a balance to make those spells scale ONLY with tankadin stats. thus, they took a stat that could be available to all specs (spell power), and added talents to modify it based on how each respective spec would gear. obviously tanks will go for stam, so they added a sp coefficient. obviously rets with go for ap, so they added a sp coefficient. not to mention all specs benefit from sp with the innate ability to heal. in reality, this is for overall class balance, and while somewhat complicated in terms of gearing "ideally" with the valuation of how much each stat will actually benefit you, we dont know what gear will be like at 80, and the stage is set for a reasonable balance between all specs. not to say it isnt complicated, but if you can come up with a better way to properly scale paladin spells for all specs without the current coefficients, without taking away from the utility this provides (ie tank/retadins wont have worthless heals), then more power to you.

im looking forward to these new coefficients. jsut like when i slap on my healing gear now to heal, this will only help, and wont pidgeonhole me into the sole role of tanking.

basically:

is it necessary for tankadins? not at all
does it help in terms of strengthening a hybrid class? very much so
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Postby Sabindeus » Wed Jul 30, 2008 10:51 am

Basically Dorvan, when you see the SP coefficients outright removed from our tanking abilities, then you can make this claim. As it is, I believe it is intended for every paladin to have some amount of spellpower at all times to fuel big heals despite not wearing the gear for it.
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