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Touched by the Light -- a backwards-looking talent?

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Postby Grehn|Skipjack » Tue Jul 29, 2008 3:21 pm

Spectrum wrote:Let's see, what is not affected by AP that we use when tanking?

Exorcism
Holy Wrath
Righteousness Aura
Holy Shield
SoR
SoV

Exorcism Holy Wrath and all Seals gain bonuses from AP. Ret aura and Holy Shield do not.
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Postby Karock » Tue Jul 29, 2008 6:10 pm

But the whole "healing in prot gear" argument seems kinda silly to me. I mean if I want to heal I'm in healing gear... or I'm out of mana anyways? So who cares if I sacrifice a tiny bit of healing viability in gear that I never heal in anyways?

Unless ALL of our abilities scale with spellpower it's going to be worse than if it was Stam -> AP. I guess I'm fine with that even if it isn't the "best" we could have.
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Postby mclem » Tue Jul 29, 2008 6:18 pm

Ulushnar wrote:That's next expansion when they condense AP and SP into a "Power" stat.


In three or four expansions' time it'll all be simply condensed down to an "Awesomeness" stat. It would save all discussions about relative merits; "Hmmm. This helm is more awesome than that helm, so I'll use this helm now."
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Postby Mithos » Tue Jul 29, 2008 6:20 pm

I was literally just about to make post saying pretty much exactly what your original post said Dorvan, been thinking about it for a few days.

Tbh from what I have seen from the talents atm I have found myself thinking of "which talents will be giving the most threat increase for the least points", it is only 3 points but almost everything scales with AP now.

It is a good threat talent and a great off healer talent yes, no denying that, my thoughts were just "are those 3 points better spent elsewhere, from a purely threat based arguement?". I'm not sure if they are, was just a thought in my head. Right now from my PoV, I'm thinking purely of threat per talent point spent, because its clear tha we won't be able to get all of Divine Strength, Imp SoR/SoV/SoC, 1H spec, reckoning, Touched by the Light and Imp Judgement in any kind of typical Main Tank talent setup.
Last edited by Mithos on Tue Jul 29, 2008 6:34 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Postby mclem » Tue Jul 29, 2008 6:28 pm

I've been trying to do the maths on one small portion of this, but I've not had much luck (I can just about cope with Seal of Righteosness, but Vengeance is making my head hurt), the simple question is this:

Per-point, do you get more of a threat boost from Touched By The Light or Seals of the Pure? I guess there's a stamina tipping point where one overwhelms the other; SotP covers fewer spells than TbtL which may be a significant factor.

I do get the feeling that TbtL is pitched at healing given the second aspect of the spell (although I am left wondering where this spell crit is going to *come* from...), but I'm undecided about whether it'll also have a significant enough threat component to be worth plumping for.

I'm starting to get the feeling that if I was to go for all the threat talents I wanted, I'd be a threat monster, but would have few points in the bonus niceties; I think the trick might be to spec for the right amount of threat for what you're progressing through at the moment and put the remaining points in survival talents.
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Postby Makaijin » Tue Jul 29, 2008 6:30 pm

For offhealing wise in prot spec now, we stack mp5 gear instead of crit gear because we don't have illumination. With Touched by the Light, we will be seeing bigger Flash of Light heals when using healing gear. Since we won't be spamming Holy Light, it's a nice talent for improving our efficiency more while off healing in prot spec.
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Postby Grehn|Skipjack » Tue Jul 29, 2008 6:33 pm

Karock wrote:But the whole "healing in prot gear" argument seems kinda silly to me. I mean if I want to heal I'm in healing gear... or I'm out of mana anyways? So who cares if I sacrifice a tiny bit of healing viability in gear that I never heal in anyways?
To me, the healing component isn't as much a "healing in prot gear" thing as it is "healing as prot spec". Right now, a Prot Paladin's "Heal gear" consists of Shaman mail because of the high mp5, and because holy gear has a lot of crit that doesn't benefit us. They are basically saying "Hey, now your crits do something! Use Plate to heal!" which falls in line with Blizzards rampage to make sure all players are using the "correct" armor type for their class.
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Postby Karock » Tue Jul 29, 2008 6:46 pm

But how would AP and 30% more healed from critical heals change that? Also we're going to continue to want MP5 because we're still not going to gain the mana returns that holy paladin do so we'll be much more mana inefficient. With no mana you can't heal so who cares if you heal for more?

Sure I guess you could say "when you stick on healing gear this talent still gives you extra healing for your stam!" but it seems kind of silly that our primary purpose should be put on the backburner so that we could be a better offhealer.

Again like I said I guess I'm fine with it just like I was fine with having Consecration not scale with AP.
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Postby Mithos » Tue Jul 29, 2008 7:10 pm

Currently what I'm seeing as my MT spec template is this:

http://wotlk.wowhead.com/?talent=sZE0xIxczMMqxoGoV0x

Note that I have removed all the threat talents except Divine Strength because you need one of them to progress down the tree, and Divine Strength looks strong, BUT dont let it bias you, I just had to put one of them in.

I also have redoubt and shield spec, because they are almost definately going to fix it to include strength induced BV. Even if they don't, redoubt is still pretty good tbh and I don't think threat is gonna be a big issue in 5 mans. Different dicussion, just explaining my rationale.

Feel free to just play around with it and see what you get, I am too distant from current beta data to do any kind of accurate theory crafting on it, but this is what I have come up with so far:

Spec 1 - If TbtL is not as good as it looks: http://wotlk.wowhead.com/?talent=sZE0xIxczrgqxoGoVbx

Spec 2 - If TbtL is as good as it looks: http://wotlk.wowhead.com/?talent=sZy0xIxczMgqeoGoVbx

Spec 3 - Imp Judgement isn't that great anymore: http://wotlk.wowhead.com/?talent=sZE0xIxczRgqeoGoV0x

Spec 4 - Reckoning is imba: http://wotlk.wowhead.com/?talent=sZE0xIxczRgqeoGoV0x


I am going to start a new thread about "The effectiveness of various threat talents for a tankadin" much similar to the current stats one, although it will be for WotLK and won't be complete as stuff changes so much atm, also I'm not completely up on what is going on in the beta atm, I just rely on spamming refresh on websites :D.
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Postby Arjuna » Wed Jul 30, 2008 12:25 am

nevermind the healing, our attacks scale with spellpower aswell!

So stamina will be a threat stat aswell...
HUZZAH! How many points do I receive? :D
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Postby Karock » Wed Jul 30, 2008 1:03 am

Arjuna wrote:nevermind the healing, our attacks scale with spellpower aswell!

So stamina will be a threat stat aswell...


As far as I know neither our new shield bash nor our hammer of the righteous scale with spellpower?
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Postby Arjuna » Wed Jul 30, 2008 1:07 am

Karock wrote:
Arjuna wrote:nevermind the healing, our attacks scale with spellpower aswell!

So stamina will be a threat stat aswell...


As far as I know neither our new shield bash nor our hammer of the righteous scale with spellpower?


you are absolutely right...thats 2 abilities...check out the rest...
HUZZAH! How many points do I receive? :D
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Postby Karock » Wed Jul 30, 2008 1:18 am

Arjuna wrote:
Karock wrote:
Arjuna wrote:nevermind the healing, our attacks scale with spellpower aswell!

So stamina will be a threat stat aswell...


As far as I know neither our new shield bash nor our hammer of the righteous scale with spellpower?


you are absolutely right...thats 2 abilities...check out the rest...


Two of our main single target abilities...

And no need for an attitude :)
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Postby Sarkan-ZdC » Wed Jul 30, 2008 1:22 am

1.500+ Stamina
500+ Strength

Of which of the two would you rather want 30% as Spelldamage?

Only if you have DIRE problems with threat I would get both. But do not compare them. There will not be THAT much Strength on our Equip.
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Postby Gideon » Wed Jul 30, 2008 1:23 am

Grehn|Skipjack wrote:
Spectrum wrote:Let's see, what is not affected by AP that we use when tanking?

Exorcism
Holy Wrath
Righteousness Aura
Holy Shield
SoR
SoV

Exorcism Holy Wrath and all Seals gain bonuses from AP. Ret aura and Holy Shield do not.


Ret aura would be used for AOE or lightweight tanking scenarios, you'd want devo for heavy hitting targets.

The coefficient on Holy Shield has been very low since 1.9 and the spell represents a smaller part of our overall tps than Consecrate or SoR. With the two new active abilities Holy Shield is even less important for threat.

It is starting to look like AP > SP for our threat.
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