LoL - They nerfed Ret hard.

[Worldie]

There's difference between a nerf and a stupid thing.

15k crits at level 70 were stupid.

[Arjuna]

44 of us online on the forum atm...

[Ahms]

one thing to discuss is that:

if it haven't been implemented in live...isnt it just a fix to a talent still under beta testing?

although personally i dont believe you can nerf something we don't have in the actual game, it really is just a matter of semantics

you know, you see the glass half full or half empty. or imo half way to another drink

[Arjuna]

I don't see the glass, I'm looking for:

a) A waiter/bartender to get me another one...

b) A nice-looking girl that is sitting close enough...

[Kayoto]

Tbh PvE retri is fine as it is now.

Oh, I never said otherwise, but it's still an unnecessary damage reduction for them, considering it was only 'overpowered' in PVP scenarios, really.

The other problem comes from the fact that PVE Ret now has three talent points to spend, but not many useful talents left to spend on them -- and PVP ret now has three MORE necessary points they have to take, in an already bloated tree for them (especially considering a lot of them want Imp. HoJ in the prot tree).

[Sabindeus]

People are still critting for high numbers even without Art of War.

The replacement talent makes Ret more viable in PVP just like the 5 digit crits did. An even trade.

[Baelor]

People are still critting for high numbers even without Art of War.

The replacement talent makes Ret more viable in PVP just like the 5 digit crits did. An even trade.

The force is strong with this one.

Sabs said basically the same thing I was going to. People over on EJ are still citing crazy high judgements, some enough to nearly 1-shot current players with no resil. Mind you, this is without raid buffs, this is all just paladin, on his/her own, sometimes not even popping wings.

Art of War would have been a crazy good PvE talent, but its loss will be avenged through the course of the beta. Fear not, the sky isn't falling.

Plus, I like the new version. The name doesn't fit the usage very much, but think about this: 3v3 team, ret/war/shaman vs PMR. You know how the rogue can theoretically stunlock your shammy while the mage messes with either you or the warrior and the priest heals through the loose one?

Heh, well, Hand of Freedom the first Kidney Shot. Shammy trinkets the second Kidney Shot. Hand of Freedom the third Kidney Shot. Good luck getting your stuns to stick after that!

[Ahms]

anyone have an estimation on what kind of health levels we will be looking at as we close to level 80? i saw a warlock saying they were hitting 20-25k at around 75

[Macha]

Tbh PvE retri is fine as it is now.

Oh, I never said otherwise, but it's still an unnecessary damage reduction for them, considering it was only 'overpowered' in PVP scenarios, really.

21k Crits.
The fix was not unnecessary, it was necessary.

Balancing classes does not mean making one clearly overpowered.

Do you realize that beta PALADINS were complaining about this, because it was getting boring?

[Kayoto]

21k Crits.
The fix was not unnecessary, it was necessary.

Balancing classes does not mean making one clearly overpowered.

Do you realize that beta PALADINS were complaining about this, because it was getting boring?

When did I ever say they should've left it in its previous form?

All I'm trying to say (and I'm not complaining at all, I'm merely making observations, I've never even played Ret) is that for PVE purposes, the change of the talent results in some sort of DPS loss for Ret Paladins, and that it wasn't compensated in any way.

Are Ret Paladins going to be fine in PVE regardless? Yeah, more than likely.

If I were a Ret Paladin in a high end raiding guild where maximizing DPS becomes one of the key attributes of progression fights, would I be slightly disappointed that a very attractive damage increasing talent was replaced with a PVP talent? Probably.

Regardless, I think the new version is really cool/useful for PVP, and should probably stay that way. But PVE Ret Pallies are going to be slightly disappointed by the change, that's all I've been saying.

[Forlorn]

Thats ok, ret is still overpowered but this is due to a bug with judement of justice. Right now I am soloing my way through Azjol-Nerub. I die a fair amount but I make forward progress. If I had a healer with me we would be 2 manning this thing.

[Truthiness]

Thats ok, ret is still overpowered but this is due to a bug with judement of justice. Right now I am soloing my way through Azjol-Nerub. I die a fair amount but I make forward progress. If I had a healer with me we would be 2 manning this thing.

Zuh?! Do explain.

[Grehn|Skipjack]

Zuh?! Do explain.

Judgement of Justice acts like you judged the mob every time you refresh the debuff. IE, every swing an extra 1k~ damage.

[Arthaal]

There's difference between a nerf and a stupid thing.

15k crits at level 70 were stupid.

It was stupid, but retuning an ability downwards is still "nerfing" it... it may be necessary, warranted whatever, it's still "nerfing" it. Anyways, no one's commented on the sheer lacklusterness of 2 deep ret talents now.

[Hankthetank]

There's difference between a nerf and a stupid thing.

15k crits at level 70 were stupid.

It was stupid, but retuning an ability downwards is still "nerfing" it... it may be necessary, warranted whatever, it's still "nerfing" it. Anyways, no one's commented on the sheer lacklusterness of 2 deep ret talents now.

It's all about connotation. To a great many people, most "nerfs" are considered unjustified lowering of a class' power.

Despite the fact that the same amount of "nerfing" may have been done, the difference between bringing a class in line with others compared to ripping the guts out of an average class leaving it weak and pathetic is pretty drastic. This was a case of bringing the power back in line.

The question shouldn't be if it's a nerf or not, the question is if it is justified and fair.