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SoB viability as a tanking seal.

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Postby Lemondish » Mon Jul 28, 2008 7:54 am

Origon wrote:Not necesarilly, could be made that way so its not getting to the 'retardedly OP' part. Just imagine tab-judging wisdom on a pack of 3 mobs and then having HoR proc the judgement and seal on every single one of them, refreshing it everytime it does. If it procced the seal, we'd basically have almost the same threat on all 3 mobs instead of a larger threat lead on the main targetted mob. IMO blizzard is trying to make us less of a "pick a target, any target" tank and a more of a "no damnit, not the triangle, get the skull" focus fire tank. Then again, when have they made sense, could very well be bugged


We do not lose ANY of our abilities as AoE tanks. Consecration does not scale as well as it does with our current gear, but we've gained a swipe equivalent, and a high threat single target ability. As such, we're stronger tanks than we were before IF you're interested in paying attention. Its appears to no longer be enough just to spam consecration and holy shield and alt tab to read maintankadin.

I do quite hope that Hammer of the Righteous does eventually proc Seals, as well as refreshes Judgments. As it stands, Retribution Paladins are capable of multi target Seals, which is an amazingly cool mechanic, and I see no reason why it couldn't be added to Hammer as well. Given our mana issues at the moment, a way to Proc wisdom on multiple targets at the same time would tremendously aid in regen and solving those mana issues. Its a trade off of course (just as Judging wisdom on live was) but in the end I believe it'd become an interesting mechanic.
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Postby Kayoto » Mon Jul 28, 2008 7:57 am

Lemondish wrote:
We do not lose ANY of our abilities as AoE tanks. Consecration does not scale as well as it does with our current gear, but we've gained a swipe equivalent, and a high threat single target ability. As such, we're stronger tanks than we were before IF you're interested in paying attention. Its appears to no longer be enough just to spam consecration and holy shield and alt tab to read maintankadin.

I do quite hope that Hammer of the Righteous does eventually proc Seals, as well as refreshes Judgments. As it stands, Retribution Paladins are capable of multi target Seals, which is an amazingly cool mechanic, and I see no reason why it couldn't be added to Hammer as well. Given our mana issues at the moment, a way to Proc wisdom on multiple targets at the same time would tremendously aid in regen and solving those mana issues. Its a trade off of course (just as Judging wisdom on live was) but in the end I believe it'd become an interesting mechanic.


I concur with the above.

Also, they should allow Hammer of the Righteous to be used with 2-handers to encourage hybridity and increase solo capability, in my opinion.
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Postby Origon » Mon Jul 28, 2008 7:58 am

The part I'm more referring to is having SoW up and being able to get huge mana returns from that resulting in consecration spam
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Postby Argali » Mon Jul 28, 2008 8:14 am

With STR being put into more tanking items, I wondered, how much STR would be needed for SOB to outdmg SOR.

So I went back and recalculated what my SOR dps would be with my gear, and a cleaver instead of my s2 mace, with the spl dmg talent, and it works out to about 61~.

SoB is 35% wpn dmg, which is wpn dps + ap/14. Some buttons on my calc, and it works out with 290 more str, I'd outdps SoR using SoB. (I happily ignored the fact that 290 more str would give me 29 more dps on SoR).

My gear gives me around 900stm, so 300 str is about 1/3 of that.

How's the Str/stm ratio on gear on beta?
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Postby Equitas » Mon Jul 28, 2008 8:40 am

Argali wrote:With STR being put into more tanking items, I wondered, how much STR would be needed for SOB to outdmg SOR.

So I went back and recalculated what my SOR dps would be with my gear, and a cleaver instead of my s2 mace, with the spl dmg talent, and it works out to about 61~.

SoB is 35% wpn dmg, which is wpn dps + ap/14. Some buttons on my calc, and it works out with 290 more str, I'd outdps SoR using SoB. (I happily ignored the fact that 290 more str would give me 29 more dps on SoR).

My gear gives me around 900stm, so 300 str is about 1/3 of that.

How's the Str/stm ratio on gear on beta?



Ill try to remain neutral here because saying: No SoB is a dps seal, would be stupid, as worldie phrased it already: If SOB turns out to give us the most threat, then why not use it?

The Data though seems to speak for SoR/V/Corr at the moment due to the better scaling with coefficients for Spellpower, apparently AP scaling for SoR is 5%*weaponspeed and a higher portion of approx 40% towards selldmg if i remember correctly.

Due to us getting massive amouints of spelldmg and SoB not stacking with Spelldmg you will need A LOT of strength to compensate that loss.
Which we will never ever have on our tanking gear at least in proportion to Stamina.

Besides if Lemon and the others here are correct about our Hammer applying multitarget Judgements and seals then SoV will be the epic winner. Worldie also mentioned that 0 Stacks SoV/corr actually hits for 600 Holy dmg. So yeah.

IMO trend still looks like SoB will remain a DPS seal which is good.

Unless we really will get massiv amounts of strength. We will see. Its still possible as blizzard mentioned that they want tanks to be able to do DPS.
Still SoR/V were designed for tanking. I think it will remain that way.


EDIT: oh and dont forget seals of the Pure :D
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Postby PsiVen » Mon Jul 28, 2008 8:45 am

If SOB turns out to give us the most threat, then why not use it?


Because it might kill you while tanking.
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Postby Equitas » Mon Jul 28, 2008 8:52 am

Yes Psiven we know that argument. Were assuming fights that dont go like Brutallus where youre dead if you dont dodge 1 out of 3 attacks in a stomp.


If our dmg increases by alot then no it will not be viable as you will be eating a lot of dmg over a 10 min encounter.

If not and its superior go for it.

Dont get me wrong im a very strong proponent of SoR/V/Corr, but once we ding 80 and our gear is halfway set and we see the encounters well be able to draw straight conclusions.
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Postby Jerey-Darkspear » Mon Jul 28, 2008 9:04 am

I remember seeing somewhere that Judgement of Blood lands everytime in TBC with no resist/miss. Is this still the case with the new judgement system? At the very least, it'd still be good for the opening judgement for this reason.
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Postby Sartor » Mon Jul 28, 2008 9:53 am

Granted, Seal proc and Judgment proc are two different things.

However, procing judgment debuffs does not sound so overpowered - until you judge all targets around you, probably the mob pack will be dead. :P

Unless your DPS are slackers, I doubt we would be able to apply more than 2-3 judgments on the trash packs.

Besides it will help us regaining mana with HotR, after applying 2-3 JoW.

Conclusion: It would be good to see HotR to proc judgment debuffs. However, the skill should not proc the current Seal active.

What do you think?
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Postby Paladei » Mon Jul 28, 2008 10:06 am

I'm wondering... does HOTR have any white damage component to it? If not, I wouldn't really expect it to refresh seals unless (like in CS) explicitly stated in the skill description.
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Postby Arees » Mon Jul 28, 2008 10:20 am

Paladei wrote:I'm wondering... does HOTR have any white damage component to it? If not, I wouldn't really expect it to refresh seals unless (like in CS) explicitly stated in the skill description.


I wouldn't expect it to refresh seals either, but I would expect it to proc them.
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Postby Lemondish » Mon Jul 28, 2008 11:04 am

WATERBOYsh wrote:I wouldn't expect it to refresh seals either, but I would expect it to proc them.


Upon thinking about it, even though it would be tremendously cool to be able to stack SoV/SoC on up to 3 targets at once, I don't think it'd be very balanced. For instance, if the ability procced Seals, then the additional damage from SoR/SoB or the stun from SoJ would be capable off affecting up to three targets.

This would obviously increase our TPS and damage output while also giving us the ability to regen health and mana through SoL/SoW without having to trade off much.

As it stands it was simply a really neat idea (worldie has confirmed it does not proc seals or judgments). The use of SoB as a tanking Seal is truly only interesting to me because it is, in effect, the only Seal that would aid us in threat AND mana regen. The damage caused to ourselves can be healed and therefore SA kicks in. Its not much, but its a bandaid until we have a better idea on how our mana issues are going to be solved.

Paladei wrote:I'm wondering... does HOTR have any white damage component to it? If not, I wouldn't really expect it to refresh seals unless (like in CS) explicitly stated in the skill description.


It currently does not have a white damage proc, its actually 100% Holy spell damage. It just uses our weapon damage to calculate it. Or at least it should, from what I hear its slightly bugged at the moment.
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