SoB viability as a tanking seal.

All things related to the expansion

Moderators: Fridmarr, Worldie, Aergis

SoB viability as a tanking seal.

Postby Argali » Sun Jul 27, 2008 8:41 am

People keep mentioning that SoB might be usable over SoR.
SoR now scales with AP and SP, while SoB scales with your normal weapon dmg (i.e. wpn dps and AP).

I did some quick, crappy and ugly calculations, with the WotlK coefficients, and SoR does more than 2x the dps of SoB.

The low SoB dps is due to the fact that the 30%stm to spl dmg talent gives so much SP, and tanking gear has very little in way of AP or STR.

I did the calculations using my gear, then changed my weapon to Heartless, and then to Cleaver of the Unforgiving.

I also compared my AP to a fellow warrior tank's AP, armory here to check that I'm not using nab gear.

Now, I've not looked at itemisation in WotlK, but I don't think SoB will be our tanking seal unless something like :

1.All SBV on gear gets converted to STR.
2.Blizz just decides to put a boatload of STR in addition to STM on gear.
3.Something random happens, like a barrel roll.

Any thoughts, or things I missed?
Image
User avatar
Argali
 
Posts: 1080
Joined: Sat Jan 26, 2008 7:38 am

Postby Origon » Sun Jul 27, 2008 8:44 am

You have to remember that due to the same itemization for warriors / paladins / dks there WILL be a metric ass-ton of str on tanking plate simply due to the fact that it's a dk's main threat stat if not one of his only (other than hit and expertise) and helps a warrior immensely. we're coming along for the ride
User avatar
Origon
 
Posts: 693
Joined: Wed Feb 20, 2008 10:03 pm

Postby Worldie » Sun Jul 27, 2008 8:53 am

For sure not at lvl 70.
theckhd wrote:Fuck no, we've seen what you do to guilds. Just imagine what you could do to an entire country. Just visiting the US might be enough to make the southern states try to secede again.

halabar wrote:Noo.. you don't realize the problem. Worldie was to negative guild breaking energy like Bolvar is to the Scourge. If Worldie is removed, than someone must pick up that mantle, otherwise that negative guild breaking energy will run rampant, destroying all the servers.
User avatar
Worldie
Global Mod
 
Posts: 13556
Joined: Sun Sep 02, 2007 1:49 pm
Location: Italy

Re: SoB viability as a tanking seal.

Postby Lemondish » Sun Jul 27, 2008 8:58 am

Argali wrote:People keep mentioning that SoB might be usable over SoR.
SoR now scales with AP and SP, while SoB scales with your normal weapon dmg (i.e. wpn dps and AP).

I did some quick, crappy and ugly calculations, with the WotlK coefficients, and SoR does more than 2x the dps of SoB.

The low SoB dps is due to the fact that the 30%stm to spl dmg talent gives so much SP, and tanking gear has very little in way of AP or STR.


At the moment it does, but in the expansion our main threat stat will be STR as every ability we'll use (minus consecration currently) has an AP component (or is indirectly related). We'll gain spell power added to the mix based on stam, which significantly reduces the need for spell power tanking plate, and thus there won't be any.
Argali wrote:I did the calculations using my gear, then changed my weapon to Heartless, and then to Cleaver of the Unforgiving.


Your gear doesn't exactly follow the new itemization ideas, though the weapons certainly help with determining whether the seal would be useful or not.

Argali wrote:I also compared my AP to a fellow warrior tank's AP, armory here to check that I'm not using nab gear.


There isn't exactly much in the way of str on many of the warrior tanking pieces these days either, so comparisons don't really help =/

Argali wrote:Now, I've not looked at itemisation in WotlK, but I don't think SoB will be our tanking seal unless something like :

1.All SBV on gear gets converted to STR.
2.Blizz just decides to put a boatload of STR in addition to STM on gear.
3.Something random happens, like a barrel roll.

Any thoughts, or things I missed?


1. Chances are that will be the case, considering the 2:1 ratio on Strength to Block Value.
2. Well, spell power is no longer on our tanking gear, and we'll share items with DKs and Warriors. So yes, STR and Stam are, in effect, our threat stats. So yes, botloads.
3. Barrell rolls are always fun.

I'm thinking its possible that Seal of Blood (and more importantly, the judgment) will produce enough threat in order to be useful (not superior to SoR, just useful). By useful I mean it'll give us the ability to cause just enough damage to ourselves in instances we outgear to maintain a decent mana level.
Seems like a bandage, but currently I don't know how we'll be able to tank things we outgear without something.
Lemondish
 
Posts: 132
Joined: Fri Jul 25, 2008 8:49 pm

Postby Equitas » Sun Jul 27, 2008 9:59 am

Seals of the pure, better scaling with stamina (spelldmg) and ap will make SoR still our seal choice number one. the new changes to SoV/corr seem interresting though and well have to wait.

Well probably start off with Righteousness and move to Vengeance/corruption afterwards.
I am filled with Rage.... and cupcakes!!!
Image
Of the Nightfall - Check
Twilight Vanquisher - Check
the Undying - Check
the Immortal - Missing
User avatar
Equitas
 
Posts: 522
Joined: Sun Jan 06, 2008 8:50 pm

Postby Lemondish » Sun Jul 27, 2008 10:03 am

Equitas wrote:Seals of the pure, better scaling with stamina (spelldmg) and ap will make SoR still our seal choice number one. the new changes to SoV/corr seem interresting though and well have to wait.

Well probably start off with Righteousness and move to Vengeance/corruption afterwards.


Thats most likely the case, I agree with you there.


Now all we need is for Hammer of the Righteous to also proc seals (if it does not already). Stacking vengeance/corruption debuffs on three targets would be a very neat mechanic. Or popping Seal of Wisdom for a chance at thrice the mana return.
Lemondish
 
Posts: 132
Joined: Fri Jul 25, 2008 8:49 pm

Postby Equitas » Sun Jul 27, 2008 10:11 am

Lemondish wrote:
Equitas wrote:Seals of the pure, better scaling with stamina (spelldmg) and ap will make SoR still our seal choice number one. the new changes to SoV/corr seem interresting though and well have to wait.

Well probably start off with Righteousness and move to Vengeance/corruption afterwards.


Thats most likely the case, I agree with you there.


Now all we need is for Hammer of the Righteous to also proc seals (if it does not already). Stacking vengeance/corruption debuffs on three targets would be a very neat mechanic. Or popping Seal of Wisdom for a chance at thrice the mana return.


Well have to wait and see, currently we have somewhat of an idea how things scale but most stuff is bugged ( i.e Strength -> BV conversion synergy with talents ).

Once we get a proper open beta where most stuff is fixed well have to collect data and graph dot strength vs uptime + judge and compare it to constant SoR judging, as far as we know JoR can crit for a lot right now, so take that into account aswell.

Just be patient id say, although i prefer the straight tps income from SoR, given the fact that we get hammer and shieldslam, judgement will not be that important to generate mainstream aggro right now. Which takes some pressure of and leaves opportunity for SoV/Corr.

As for stacking vengeance/corr on 3 mobs with hammer... that would seriously be insane. Id love that though :) Since finally well get to do more and act more dynamic as tanks rather than just pressing consecrate, judge and holy shield.

Were not just getting tools, were getting power tools, and being able to combine hammer of awesomeness with seals is going to be like pumping a syringe of 1 ml Epinephidrine into a bull. Insane, but enjoyable :D
I am filled with Rage.... and cupcakes!!!
Image
Of the Nightfall - Check
Twilight Vanquisher - Check
the Undying - Check
the Immortal - Missing
User avatar
Equitas
 
Posts: 522
Joined: Sun Jan 06, 2008 8:50 pm

Postby Sark » Sun Jul 27, 2008 10:16 am

i'll use the alliance version to help with mana regen when offtanking
User avatar
Sark
 
Posts: 313
Joined: Tue May 06, 2008 8:02 am

Postby Equitas » Sun Jul 27, 2008 10:20 am

Sark wrote:i'll use the alliance version to help with mana regen when offtanking


Ret paladins, Hunters, Diszi Priests regenerate Mana with their abilities, ret palas with their judgements which is 60% mana based on the dmg they deal ( which is a lot ), hunters with their Critical shots, and diszi priests with rapture i assume.

Using SoV will be nice but since our important threat skills like Hammer and holy Shlam are going to be eating base % mana we will do more than fine with the seal that generate more aggro in the end. If everything works out fine i believe us being offtanks is going to be pretty easy. Well have to stack stamina anyways for (hurtfull strikes etc) meaning more spelldmg etc =/

Well be fine, very fine :)
I am filled with Rage.... and cupcakes!!!
Image
Of the Nightfall - Check
Twilight Vanquisher - Check
the Undying - Check
the Immortal - Missing
User avatar
Equitas
 
Posts: 522
Joined: Sun Jan 06, 2008 8:50 pm

Postby Sharlos » Sun Jul 27, 2008 10:41 am

well, were only resealing every 30seconds now. that along is a bit mana expenditure reduction. SoB will become more useful but wont beat SoR.

The value of SoVengeance on non-gimmick/short encounters will depend on how well it scales and what it scales with (seems to have both a spell power and AP coefficient but seems bugged where the SP coefficient stacks to five while the AP one stays the same no matter how many stacks you have.
User avatar
Sharlos
 
Posts: 1566
Joined: Tue Apr 17, 2007 7:46 pm
Location: Australia

Postby Lemondish » Sun Jul 27, 2008 11:10 am

Equitas wrote:Well have to wait and see, currently we have somewhat of an idea how things scale but most stuff is bugged ( i.e Strength -> BV conversion synergy with talents ).


I may be wrong, but I think the warrior equivalent talent has ignored the block value from strength since its inception.

Equitas wrote:Once we get a proper open beta where most stuff is fixed well have to collect data and graph dot strength vs uptime + judge and compare it to constant SoR judging, as far as we know JoR can crit for a lot right now, so take that into account aswell.

Just be patient id say, although i prefer the straight tps income from SoR, given the fact that we get hammer and shieldslam, judgement will not be that important to generate mainstream aggro right now. Which takes some pressure of and leaves opportunity for SoV/Corr.

As for stacking vengeance/corr on 3 mobs with hammer... that would seriously be insane. Id love that though :) Since finally well get to do more and act more dynamic as tanks rather than just pressing consecrate, judge and holy shield.


I hear that brother. From what I've seen, Divine Storm procs Seals, and so it'd be possible to stack some vengeance on the targets there. No reason why our yummy new ability can't do the same imo ;)

Equitas wrote:Were not just getting tools, were getting power tools, and being able to combine hammer of awesomeness with seals is going to be like pumping a syringe of 1 ml Epinephidrine into a bull. Insane, but enjoyable :D


I definitely would enjoy pumping my Holy medicine into a Tauren.

Actually forget I said that.
Lemondish
 
Posts: 132
Joined: Fri Jul 25, 2008 8:49 pm

Postby Equitas » Sun Jul 27, 2008 11:24 am

Lemondish wrote:
I definitely would enjoy pumping my Holy medicine into a Tauren.



Thanks for my new signature :D



But i agree with you completely, if divine storm does the trick why wouldnt hammer.

Need beta key :(
I am filled with Rage.... and cupcakes!!!
Image
Of the Nightfall - Check
Twilight Vanquisher - Check
the Undying - Check
the Immortal - Missing
User avatar
Equitas
 
Posts: 522
Joined: Sun Jan 06, 2008 8:50 pm

Postby Ahms » Sun Jul 27, 2008 11:45 am

from what the testers say, sov is incredible for tanking now, since every hit refreshes the procs and it also does judgment damage off the bat (like every other seal is doing now). if all that's true how does sor fit into that?
Paid by the Alliance
To slay all the giants


-Ahms of Mannoroth

Art - http://ahms.deviantart.com/
User avatar
Ahms
 
Posts: 434
Joined: Wed Aug 29, 2007 10:58 pm

Postby Equitas » Sun Jul 27, 2008 12:00 pm

Ahms wrote:from what the testers say, sov is incredible for tanking now, since every hit refreshes the procs and it also does judgment damage off the bat (like every other seal is doing now). if all that's true how does sor fit into that?


Because if i run in after a shield toss, and judge Righteousness i get insta 2K threat right now, same also applys for wotlk, dots need some time before they start becoming effective, aswell as hitting for 130 melee white and 120 holy dmg every hit every 1.6 seconds, dot should win in the long run though, thats why lemon and i said probably start of with JoR/SoR and then as the fight moves on move on to SoV/Corr, this is for bossfights though, for trash SoR > SoV always.
I am filled with Rage.... and cupcakes!!!
Image
Of the Nightfall - Check
Twilight Vanquisher - Check
the Undying - Check
the Immortal - Missing
User avatar
Equitas
 
Posts: 522
Joined: Sun Jan 06, 2008 8:50 pm

Postby Lemondish » Sun Jul 27, 2008 1:18 pm

Equitas wrote:
Ahms wrote:from what the testers say, sov is incredible for tanking now, since every hit refreshes the procs and it also does judgment damage off the bat (like every other seal is doing now). if all that's true how does sor fit into that?


Because if i run in after a shield toss, and judge Righteousness i get insta 2K threat right now, same also applys for wotlk, dots need some time before they start becoming effective, aswell as hitting for 130 melee white and 120 holy dmg every hit every 1.6 seconds, dot should win in the long run though, thats why lemon and i said probably start of with JoR/SoR and then as the fight moves on move on to SoV/Corr, this is for bossfights though, for trash SoR > SoV always.


Absolutely. Unless SoV can stack on multiple targets through Hammer of the Righteous, SoR will still maintain its viability. Interestingly enough SoV will have its own special uses too. As we don't have much issues with mana on boss fights I wouldn't see it as impossible to stack vengeance up, swap to righteousness and go to town swapping only to maintain the stacks, which is now at 18 seconds. With judgments not consuming the seal anymore, this may become a decently worthwhile solution.

The lack of Salvation means we'll need to be doing more threat to maintain a lead and the new abilities definitely help with that. Thankfully a lot of our old abilities are being tuned to aid as well =D
Lemondish
 
Posts: 132
Joined: Fri Jul 25, 2008 8:49 pm

Next

Return to WotLK

Who is online

Users browsing this forum: No registered users and 1 guest

Who is online

In total there is 1 user online :: 0 registered, 0 hidden and 1 guest (based on users active over the past 5 minutes)
Most users ever online was 380 on Tue Oct 14, 2008 6:28 pm

Users browsing this forum: No registered users and 1 guest