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Holy Shield, Ardent Defender, GbtL, Reckoning

All things related to the expansion

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Postby Equitas » Sun Jul 27, 2008 9:54 am

Mavrix is kind of the only one getting my point right now.

Your point was that due to blizzard not wanting us to stack avoidance we are going to be like hell on the healers.

I postulated that so will be the warriors since our avoidance levels will be exactly identical due to the fact that baseline and from talents we receive the same form of avoidance and both tanks talents and skills focusing more on Block than dodge/parry/miss.

The really important part here though is following: We scale better than warriors currently do, we receive way more benefit from blockvalue, assuming shield mastery is being fixed to stack with BV from Strength.

We receive more threat, dmg migitation etc from our talents (shield masters, 15% strength, shield of the templar, holy shield, blessing of Sanctuary etc etc) where warriors dont.

Our armor levels will also be on par as we will be sharing the same gear ( at least from what we know and can see now ( no spelldmg on gear so far) and we benefit strongly from stamina and strength ( Health, Spelldmg, Migitation)

and as you said already:

"WotLK tanking will be the sound of giant boss wing-wong slapping off our shields."

And this is where our 16% hp stam scaling and superior threat generation will shine.

The point being: We are on Par with warriors right now, there is no conclusive reason to prefer a warrior tank over a paladin tank right now (except for spell reflect maybe in some cases?) in WOTLK. We will be equally viable for MTS in any encounter and even far superior on undead mobs which northrend will be "plagued" with.

This makes me happy as we finally get what we desired, equality.
Prot warriors always seemed to be superior in terms of migitation, now that this is out of the line... heeeelllooo Paladin MT :D



P.S: On another note i wanted to add something, avoidance stacking sucks... its a seriously great thing to avoid a lot of hits, but it gimps our and warriors threat generation and its way to random... ive had bosses miss via dodge miss parry etc 7 times in a row, sometimes i get my face smashed in so hard because i hardly avoid anything that its stupidly unreasonable, i think the devs are going in a good direction making healing easier for the healers and making hots a lot more effective as theire uptime is going to be a lot longer making hot based classes like druids far more effective, rather than situational ( silence/moving | Azgalor|Archimonde )
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Postby Origon » Sun Jul 27, 2008 10:18 am

Equitas, you're a tad on a different point i think. what we're talking about is having huge amounts of avoidance was awesome to us, and we enjoyed the dodging of every 3rd attack tanking style. yes we may be better off than warriors right now, but thats not the point. we arent discussing whether we'll be more viable or wanted than them. personally, im stating that i prefer the avoidance stacking more than stam stacking myself, and i think thats what ulu is saying as well. it doesnt matter if we're better than warriors or not, it matters that we, as paladins can no longer stack ridiculous avoidance and will be simple meat-shields. that has nothing to do with warriors, its simply a different way of tanking thats coming about

(and excuse the lack of punctuation and capitalization, i've been awake too damn long)
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Postby Equitas » Sun Jul 27, 2008 10:26 am

Origon wrote:Equitas, you're a tad on a different point i think. what we're talking about is having huge amounts of avoidance was awesome to us, and we enjoyed the dodging of every 3rd attack tanking style. yes we may be better off than warriors right now, but thats not the point. we arent discussing whether we'll be more viable or wanted than them. personally, im stating that i prefer the avoidance stacking more than stam stacking myself, and i think thats what ulu is saying as well. it doesnt matter if we're better than warriors or not, it matters that we, as paladins can no longer stack ridiculous avoidance and will be simple meat-shields. that has nothing to do with warriors, its simply a different way of tanking thats coming about

(and excuse the lack of punctuation and capitalization, i've been awake too damn long)


I'm getting the point, all i am trying to do is point out that yes avoidance is fun, avoiding lots of dmg is great no question about that, but when stacking as much as warriors all we really did was threatcapping the DPS in most cases. And by removing avoidance (not completely) out of the table it puts us on par with the other tanks, which is great because that means finally in most cases it wont matter which class youre playing, just how good you are at doing what you do.

And yes i agree its definitely going to be a different way of tanking, one we have to adapt to, but its good, change is always good :)
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Postby Origon » Sun Jul 27, 2008 10:28 am

As far as I understand from a lot of the posters here, it hasn't been about class for quite a while now but about personal skill (minus RoS phase2 of course) when deciding what tank gets what
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Postby Equitas » Sun Jul 27, 2008 11:29 am

Origon wrote:As far as I understand from a lot of the posters here, it hasn't been about class for quite a while now but about personal skill (minus RoS phase2 of course) when deciding what tank gets what


Ive been in progression raids since... puh.. naxx?

With BT/MH being high end raids ive been in 2 top 100 world guilds (bosskillers) and up until recently ive been raiding in another world top 100 guild, stopped with muru though because of summer work and university. This all has been on my warlock. Yes we had Tankadins. None of which were used for progression raids.

With Sunwell... Our setup has always been Warr/Druid, except for felmyst and Muru(spawns). Even though Prot pallys would do the job with the north/south camp better than a warrior or a druid we still went for it and well it worked out pretty well. Always has. We did use a Ret pally for Brutallus when he was on farm but for progress it was unimaginable.

And that is what i hope is going to change with Wotlk, not about class... about player skills.

But thats only what ive seen and can report so far, maybe other guilds do it differently.
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Postby ulushnar » Sun Jul 27, 2008 1:42 pm

Equitas wrote:And yes i agree its definitely going to be a different way of tanking, one we have to adapt to, but its good, change is always good :)


Not always.

Admit it, you just want giant boss wing-wong in your face.
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Postby Lemondish » Sun Jul 27, 2008 2:18 pm

Equitas wrote:I'm getting the point, all i am trying to do is point out that yes avoidance is fun, avoiding lots of dmg is great no question about that, but when stacking as much as warriors all we really did was threatcapping the DPS in most cases. And by removing avoidance (not completely) out of the table it puts us on par with the other tanks, which is great because that means finally in most cases it wont matter which class youre playing, just how good you are at doing what you do.

And yes i agree its definitely going to be a different way of tanking, one we have to adapt to, but its good, change is always good :)


In a wonderful break from tradition, the two main stats we'll be stacking in wrath add both to our threat AND our survivability. It seems to me that mitigating damage is the name of the game here as opposed to outright avoiding it. With the change to a warriors shield block ability we're in the unique position of being capable of blocking more often than a warrior, and more consistently, and so, with all things being equal, this would be a net increase in our mitigation compared to the Warrior.

A good example as to what happens when your avoidance gets too high is to look at Sunwell. At some point your avoidance would be improving as the damage from bosses is also increased, leading to extremely high spike damage when they do manage to land a hit. Sunwell nerfed all of our total avoidance by 25%, so that instead of being hit for harder less times, we're hit softer more times. It makes the damage less streaky.

Paladins were forced to stack avoidance in order to maintain uncrushability, but now Sunwell (and the expansion, in effect) no longer worries about crushing blows. We can afford to remove some of that avoidance and fill it in with threat and effective health to properly round out our stats rather than feeling like we're forced into it.

I see no reason why any tank wouldn't be able to gear for massive avoidance, but now, in wrath, it may not be the ONLY way to tank, or necessarily the BEST way to tank.
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Postby Equitas » Sun Jul 27, 2008 2:33 pm

Ulushnar wrote:
Equitas wrote:And yes i agree its definitely going to be a different way of tanking, one we have to adapt to, but its good, change is always good :)


Not always.

Admit it, you just want giant boss wing-wong in your face.


Yes i like boss wongs in my face while my cat gently masturbates the consecrate buttons on my keyboard. :roll: :P


/sign @ lemon
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Postby Lemondish » Sun Jul 27, 2008 2:39 pm

Equitas wrote:
Ulushnar wrote:
Equitas wrote:And yes i agree its definitely going to be a different way of tanking, one we have to adapt to, but its good, change is always good :)


Not always.

Admit it, you just want giant boss wing-wong in your face.


Yes i like boss wongs in my face while my cat gently masturbates the consecrate buttons on my keyboard. :roll: :P


/sign @ lemon



Exactly how gentle are we talkin here..?
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