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Holy Shield, Ardent Defender, GbtL, Reckoning

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Postby ulushnar » Sun Jul 27, 2008 7:21 am

Origon wrote:Oh I'm just imagining a T9 tankadin with 30-35k hp in WSG >=)


...getting punked by a Mage in 15 secs because he has zero resilience?
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Postby ulushnar » Sun Jul 27, 2008 7:24 am

Whilst it's undoubtable that our HPeen (see what I did thar?) will be mighty in Wrath, I'm concerned about how our other tanking stats will be balanced.

Are we basically going to be big Health/threat monsters with no real Avoidance? I kinda like having 56% avoidance now, but I know Blizz isn't keen on high-avoidance tanks.

Essentially, is Blizz gonna turn us into Druids?
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Postby Origon » Sun Jul 27, 2008 7:36 am

Well with the new itemization (i'm assuming tier gear still has roughly the same stam for warriors / paladins / deathknights) we'll be a few k ahead of the warriors, not quite sure how large the gap is at the T6 level now as i'm nowhere near that myself, but through simular gearing the only difference should be our multipliers (1.1 and 1.06 from talents) and that overall cant make us have much much less avoidance than warriors / dks....right?.....right?
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Postby ulushnar » Sun Jul 27, 2008 7:40 am

I think in general avoidance levels are gonna be lower than we're used to. If there's one thing that we can divine from Sunwell Radience, it's that Blizzard doesn't like high avoidance tanks.

And that bothers me, yeah we'll have a load of health, but we'll be hell on the healers without avoidance alongside it.
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Postby Equitas » Sun Jul 27, 2008 7:47 am

Ulushnar wrote:I think in general avoidance levels are gonna be lower than we're used to. If there's one thing that we can divine from Sunwell Radience, it's that Blizzard doesn't like high avoidance tanks.

And that bothers me, yeah we'll have a load of health, but we'll be hell on the healers without avoidance alongside it.


so will the warriors
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Postby Origon » Sun Jul 27, 2008 7:50 am

45-55% should be doable with the amount of dodge and parry on the drop items so far, then again, that all might change later on. Also need to remember that haste on healers is becoming more common, as well as ridiculous amounts of regen on druids and priests (possibly pallies and shammies) so instead of high avoidance fights it should be looking like slower sponge-soaking. or at least i'm hoping for that

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Postby ulushnar » Sun Jul 27, 2008 7:55 am

Equitas wrote:so will the warriors


I'm honestly not bothered about an Us vs the Warriors argument. I just liked avoidance tanking. It felt more "crisp" than the offtimes "spongy" EH tanking. That said, i appreciate why Blizz had problems balancing for tanks with 60%+ Avoidance. They could either assume all tanks at that level had that much or trivialise it for the ones who did.

Yeah, we'll end up with higher EH, but it'll mean slightly less than it does now.
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Postby ulushnar » Sun Jul 27, 2008 7:58 am

Origon wrote:45-55% should be doable with the amount of dodge and parry on the drop items so far, then again, that all might change later on.


Remember, that dodge and parry rating will give less dodge and parry at level 80 than it does at level 70-ish.
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Postby Origon » Sun Jul 27, 2008 7:59 am

Might also be the fact that with insanely high avoidance (60+ %) there is just too much luck added to the encounters, such as huge avoidance streaks or taking 3 hits on brutallus after a stomp every single attempt kinda luck. This will balance it out a bit more in that perspective with less luck based survival and more "i'm slowly getting my ass handed to me, heal me sometime soon please" type fights
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Postby Equitas » Sun Jul 27, 2008 7:59 am

Ulushnar wrote:
Equitas wrote:so will the warriors


I'm honestly not bothered about an Us vs the Warriors argument. I just liked avoidance tanking. It felt more "crisp" than the offtimes "spongy" EH tanking. That said, i appreciate why Blizz had problems balancing for tanks with 60%+ Avoidance. They could either assume all tanks at that level had that much or trivialise it for the ones who did.

Yeah, we'll end up with higher EH, but it'll mean slightly less than it does now.


Since were sharing the same gear with warriors now.

Paladins and Warrios get: 5% parry and 5% from dodge now.
Avoidance will pretty much remain the same since shield block doesnt give you 75% dodge etc

Shield Block: Increases your chance to block and the amount blocked by 100% for 5 sec, but will only block 1 attack. 30 sec cooldown.


Avoidance will remain the same, we will have more block % but we will also have more Block value. So basically i dont see avoidance being a problem in the Pala/Warri discussion anymore, Just threat and health
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Postby ulushnar » Sun Jul 27, 2008 8:02 am

Equitas wrote:Avoidance will remain the same, we will have more block % but we will also have more Block value. So basically i dont see avoidance being a problem in the Pala/Warri discussion anymore, Just threat and health


I repeat, I honestly don't care about Warriors vs Paladins. It isn't even a discussion for me. I just liked Avoidance tanking, and it's gonna be hard to going back to the dumb "socket stamina everywhere lolz" approach.
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Postby Origon » Sun Jul 27, 2008 8:18 am

definitely agree with you there ulu, it was fun pushing 55% pure avoidance in kara starting gear, but we'll adapt. just looking at it now, there shouldnt be anything stopping you from gemming / enchanting for a lot of avoidance. your hp pool will be a tad lower but avoidance will be higher, should theoretically end up around the same end result (assuming roughly same itemization for avoidance / stam in gems and enchants). might be able to tailor the tanking to your preference even if a tiny bit
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Postby Mavrix » Sun Jul 27, 2008 8:43 am

Ulushnar wrote:
Equitas wrote:Avoidance will remain the same, we will have more block % but we will also have more Block value. So basically i dont see avoidance being a problem in the Pala/Warri discussion anymore, Just threat and health


I repeat, I honestly don't care about Warriors vs Paladins. It isn't even a discussion for me. I just liked Avoidance tanking, and it's gonna be hard to going back to the dumb "socket stamina everywhere lolz" approach.


His point was not warrior vs. paladin, but rather the fact that if they can only block 1 (even if it is a mighty good block). That being the case, blizzard would have a harder time removing avoidance (unless armor levels get rediculously high) since it would gimp warriors far more than it would gimp us.
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Postby ulushnar » Sun Jul 27, 2008 8:47 am

Of course they're going to move Avoidance, because it makes it bloody hard to balance encounters.

If you increase a tank's block value by 10%, that doesn't equate 10% less damage taken during a fight. If you increase someone's avoidance by 10% it damn well does.

WotLK tanking will be the sound of giant boss wing-wong slapping off our shields.
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Postby Origon » Sun Jul 27, 2008 9:14 am

Only if you're tall enough for your shield to reach that high, think of our poor dwarven brethren. Definitely do think it'll be a tad more boring being able to simply soak a ton of damage instead of dodging half of it. Although if the amp the boss damage to balance it out, we'll be playing ping-pong with our health bars and the healers will be taking the toll. Either way, looks like less mana problems due to avoidance streaks at least
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