Holy Shield, Ardent Defender, GbtL, Reckoning

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Holy Shield, Ardent Defender, GbtL, Reckoning

Postby Equitas » Fri Jul 25, 2008 7:38 am

Question for the beta testers:

1) Holy shield,
will we need imp holy shield, since there are no crushing blows anymores and the amount of charges got raised to 6 why get another 4 except when your not maintanking and taking loads of mobs. the 20% increased dmg is trivial imo, Max rank holy shield according to wotlk wiki is going to do 200 dmg per charge which means 240 dmg with the improved spec.
On the other hand side Shield of the Templar increased dmg and manacost by another 15% so thats about 35% increase which means 60 holy dmg more from every block.
Will this talent be still worthwhile in Alpha as a MAINTANK given the fact that there are more than enough talents you need to get in the prot and ret tree (assuming youre going for Seals of the Pure and depending on the rotation 0/1/2 points in imp judgement).

2) [and yes this is pure speculation]
Ardent Defender, Starting in TBC we had about 10K HP unbuffed which raidbuffed got us to about 13K HP, by the end of TBC we saw these numbers rise up to 22K HP buffed on the max limit.

Assuming a doubling up of the HP pool our max hp could be somewhere around 35-40K HP. Assuming 40K HP ardent defender will proc on 14K hp line, With that massive amount of HP we can only assume bosses will be hitting you for... well 15 K hits?
But ive never liked ardent defender, its a 5 point talent that now can be put to use in more effecitve places like more stamina / Shield Spec+Redoubt / etc.

So what are your opinions on this, because id really love to drop that sucker to get 5 points into some place else.

3) Guarded by the light.

So from what i hear Hammer of the righteous is the new tank deal and people dont consecrate as often except in AOE situations. But a 30% mana increase will save you up to 500 mana per max rank consecration thats about 1 free consecrate every 24 Seconds.

Opinions on this?

4) With crushing blows removed and us probably going hard into block value because of the awesome SHLAMMAGE ( my new name for holy shield slam) and getting hit more often i assume reckoning uptimes will rise statisticly.
Although i do see only a small fraction of our baseline threat coming from autoattacks now given the fact that we got shlammage, hammer of awesome and better judgements.

Oppinions on this?



It seems to me that depending on what you plan to do we will need to respec. If we want to go for max threat we do have a new 0/40/21 spec with the new ret sheath of light talent, if we want to go for a avoidance/TPS mix we will go more deeply into prot taking out partial mana reduce and aggro enhancing abilities. if we want to go into pure avoidance we will leave out most of the aggro stuff we drops seals of the pure etc and go deep prot even more.

/discuss please as im bored at work... very hard and i havent got my beta key yet ( wtf im a 6/8 T6 warlock mainchar and i havent received a fucking key so far...)
Last edited by Equitas on Fri Jul 25, 2008 7:40 am, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: Holy Shield, Ardent Defender, GbtL, Reckoning

Postby Sabindeus » Fri Jul 25, 2008 7:40 am

Equitas wrote:Assuming a doubling up of the HP pool our max hp could be somewhere around 35-40K HP. Assuming 40K HP ardent defender will proc on 14K hp line, With that massive amount of HP we can only assume bosses will be hitting you for... well 15 K hits?
But ive never liked ardent defender, its a 5 point talent that now can be put to use in more effecitve places like more stamina / Shield Spec+Redoubt / etc.


I doubt we'll double our HP.

Ardent Defender is a fantastic talent, and if you don't like it, you're wrong.
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Re: Holy Shield, Ardent Defender, GbtL, Reckoning

Postby Marwan » Fri Jul 25, 2008 7:47 am

Sabindeus wrote:
I doubt we'll double our HP.



Yeah Blizz has pretty much said that the gear jump isn't going to be as crazy as it was from Vanilla -> BC in terms of how much Stam is allocated per item.
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Re: Holy Shield, Ardent Defender, GbtL, Reckoning

Postby Equitas » Fri Jul 25, 2008 8:04 am

Sabindeus wrote:
Equitas wrote:Assuming a doubling up of the HP pool our max hp could be somewhere around 35-40K HP. Assuming 40K HP ardent defender will proc on 14K hp line, With that massive amount of HP we can only assume bosses will be hitting you for... well 15 K hits?
But ive never liked ardent defender, its a 5 point talent that now can be put to use in more effecitve places like more stamina / Shield Spec+Redoubt / etc.


I doubt we'll double our HP.

Ardent Defender is a fantastic talent, and if you don't like it, you're wrong.


and i dont disagree that its a great talent but you cannot argue that its actually worth 5 talent points?

Warriors get Last stand for 1(!!!!) measly talent point, and an addition 5 seconds on shieldwall for another 2 points. thats 3 points for 30% more max hp for 20 seconds and 15 seconds of 75% dmg reduction on 30 min cooldown and last stand on a 6 min cooldown, both are useable and cannot be leapfrogged because its a different mechanic.

Whereas we got a 30% dmg reduction when we are below 35% hp, which if i remember correctly still can be leapfrogged. aka you have 22K hp, 35% of that is 7700 hp, so if you get a 8K hit at 7701 hp you will still die, if you get one at 7699 you will get 5600dmg in your face leaving you with roughly 2k hp, if your healers dont react fast within the next 2 seconds or use an instant you will die. And you better hope the boss is not dual wielding as that will most certainly kill you.

The point being if a warrior gets to 20% hp he will immediatly slam the keybindings on his keyboard popping shieldwall + last stand + trinket saving him 100% of the time. We base our fate on luck. We dont have any active control. and we cant pop divine shield mostly because if a melee is right behind you... oh boy thats going to be an epic roflmaster disaster.


Please do correct me if im wrong, ill be glad to be proven wrong at any time, since that will mean ill just learn further, but the hypothesis seems to be pretty solid to me.

And yes i know if your tanking a lot of mobs at once ie doing what we were born to do.. which is let our cat spam consecrate while we watch TV then yes the talent is certainly genious but from a different perspective you should never be that low unless your healers are silenced and you are taking a beat from a boss your gear is just right for...
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Postby Sabindeus » Fri Jul 25, 2008 8:09 am

It's been explained about a billion times already on these boards. Ardent Defender is a great talent. If someone else wants to drop into this thread and reiterate the rhetoric for this, then please do so. I'm just no longer up to the topic.

I suggest going to the Talent Spec forums and looking at some threads there.
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Postby Equitas » Fri Jul 25, 2008 8:11 am

Sabindeus wrote:It's been explained about a billion times already on these boards. Ardent Defender is a great talent. If someone else wants to drop into this thread and reiterate the rhetoric for this, then please do so. I'm just no longer up to the topic.

I suggest going to the Talent Spec forums and looking at some threads there.


I will certainly do so, the main question was if AD will still be worthwhile( although somewhat speculative) in WOTLK.

Thank you.
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Re: Holy Shield, Ardent Defender, GbtL, Reckoning

Postby dmok » Fri Jul 25, 2008 8:13 am

Equitas wrote:and i dont disagree that its a great talent but you cannot argue that its actually worth 5 talent points?

There are alot of talents that aren't worth 5 points. Reckoning comes to mind (IMO not worth it to put more than 3 in tops. The graph of the uptime shows 3 is more than enough). AD is just one of those things I have no issues investing 5 points in, because I know it's worth it. As a tankadin gearing up, I can't count the number of times it's saved me, buying just that 1 extra second until a healer's heal finishes. Saved me twice on prince last night alone.

and when you're pugging 5mans for gear in WOTLK, it'll be your saviour.
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Postby PsiVen » Fri Jul 25, 2008 8:18 am

I'd say we'll end up with around 30k HP with raid buffs and early Naxx10 gear, largely from gems and base health.

1) Holy Shield still scales with SP afaik, and is definitely not a trivial amount of threat; on some fights HS is my #1 or #2 TPS ability. Even if you assume 40 dmg/charge from the talent that's what, 103 threat per proc? A boss that eats charges as fast as Brutallus will gain 100 TPS from this talent. Also it is premature to assume that MT means single mob tanking, all of our abilities point to very powerful triple-target tanking.

2) Health scales with boss damage, so AD never gets better or worse unless you're under/overgeared. It's better for some fights, worse for others, but always worth taking. See Sabin's post.

3) I guarantee you will need this talent to maintain your sanity.

4) Block value is amazing, but we won't be stacking it at the serious expense of avoidance. Hints at lower overall avoidance levels might lead to this though. My take is that my SoR uptime is garbage with Imp Judgement anyway, so Reckoning will be about the same to me. Unfortunately there is no room for it in my build yet. It is a good point that it affects a smaller portion of threat now, so it will probably be strictly inferior to 1HWS for threat but retain its utility.
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Postby Sabindeus » Fri Jul 25, 2008 8:18 am

I'd say the only way AD won't be useful in WotLK is if every single boss encounter hits you for all your life -1 on every swing a la Brutallus.
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Postby PsiVen » Fri Jul 25, 2008 8:22 am

By the way it's time to stop ragging on Last Stand, it's the last thing warriors have going for them really :P
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Postby Yadard » Fri Jul 25, 2008 8:26 am

Strangely the warriors in my raid group all say they would love to have AD...
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Postby Equitas » Fri Jul 25, 2008 8:30 am

PsiVen wrote:By the way it's time to stop ragging on Last Stand, it's the last thing warriors have going for them really :P


Im not raging :P One of our main concerns for WOTLK war a bloated prot tree, reduce point requirements on certain talents, we on the average need 4-5 more points into our prot tree for essential talents for tanking ... =/

oh well :P

btw can you link your spec for wotlk @ Psiven and i mean the one you intend tanking bosses with :P

@ dmok, well i play with healers that know their shit ;) i hardly pug in wow so thats of no concern to me :P
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Postby Kayoto » Fri Jul 25, 2008 9:22 am

Ardent Defender is one of, if not THE best talent in the game.

I cannot even begin to count how many deaths (and more than likely, consequent raid wipes) it has prevented.

Special situations render it near useless (sup Brutallus) but they are very rare currently, and I highly doubt they will be any more common in WotLK.
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Postby Sechs » Sat Jul 26, 2008 9:54 am

AD is nice no doubt about that. But if you look at it from a strictly avoidance/ dmg reduction point, Then it's only like 3-4% usual less dmg in a fight.
Tho of course AD only kicks in when needed so can't really only look at that.
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Postby Levantine » Sat Jul 26, 2008 9:58 am

ITT!

Warriors are bad.

Ardent Defender is good.

Brutallus is a fag that can go diaf.
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