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Judgments of the Just / thunderclap not needed?

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Postby Fridmarr » Sat Jul 26, 2008 12:13 am

Aleriya wrote:
If you have more than 3 that are going to be judging, I'd have the extras judging justice.

Won't most paladins want to use Judgement of Wisdom for the additional mana back?


If it overwrites a prot pally judgement then no. The tank taking 20% more damage doesn't save healers mana, and ret pallys will be getting mana back from hitting the boss.
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Postby Fridmarr » Sat Jul 26, 2008 12:18 am

Candiru wrote:
PsiVen wrote:
I found this out on Brutalus doing DPS. We had another ret paladin that day, and we noticed (on many many wipes) that whoever was judging wisdom got much less mana back from JoW than the one judging Crusader.

If we BOTH judged Crusader, and had a holy paladin judge wisdom then we both got the same amount of mana, which was the higher one from before.


I must be missing something. How exactly is live JoW different from a holy pally?


The JoW isn't different, its that you only get extra mana from JoW if you have judged JotC(imp) and are refreshing it with your melee swings.

If paladins A and B judge Crusader, and C judges Wisdom, A and B Both alternate ownership of the Crusader debuff, and both get the bonus mana!

Anyway, thats on live, does the same affect still happen on WotlK? you need 3 paladins to test really, and a combat log parser.


I think someone wasn't judging max rank wisdom. On live, JoW is a fixed value, i've never gotten anything different. Otherwise this sounds like some sort of bug.
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Postby Candiru » Sat Jul 26, 2008 12:43 am

Sorry, its not the value of JoW, but the frequency.

If you experiment you get a lot more than the expected number of JoW procs if you are keeping up imp.JotC with your melee swings. No idea why it happens, it just does :)
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Postby Fridmarr » Sat Jul 26, 2008 12:50 am

Candiru wrote:Sorry, its not the value of JoW, but the frequency.

If you experiment you get a lot more than the expected number of JoW procs if you are keeping up imp.JotC with your melee swings. No idea why it happens, it just does :)


Because when you refresh a judgement, it gets treated like you re-cast it. It's why if you melee a judged mob that's has a spell reflect up, you'll get the debuff too.
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Postby Arjuna » Sat Jul 26, 2008 1:06 am

Fridmarr wrote:
Candiru wrote:Sorry, its not the value of JoW, but the frequency.

If you experiment you get a lot more than the expected number of JoW procs if you are keeping up imp.JotC with your melee swings. No idea why it happens, it just does :)


Because when you refresh a judgement, it gets treated like you re-cast it. It's why if you melee a judged mob that's has a spell reflect up, you'll get the debuff too.


strange that they havent fixed that...it used to be like that with JoW on live some time ago...I remember having 100% uptime on my Libram of Avengement, but they fixed it a few patches ago...
HUZZAH! How many points do I receive? :D
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Postby Candiru » Sat Jul 26, 2008 3:51 am

Fridmarr wrote:
Candiru wrote:Sorry, its not the value of JoW, but the frequency.

If you experiment you get a lot more than the expected number of JoW procs if you are keeping up imp.JotC with your melee swings. No idea why it happens, it just does :)


Because when you refresh a judgement, it gets treated like you re-cast it. It's why if you melee a judged mob that's has a spell reflect up, you'll get the debuff too.


Yes, but you only get the extra mana if you are re-casting JotC. And also two different paladins can "re-cast" the same judgement with the melee attacks, and it alternates ownership.
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Postby Noradin » Sat Jul 26, 2008 4:09 am

Fridmarr wrote:
Aleriya wrote:
If you have more than 3 that are going to be judging, I'd have the extras judging justice.

Won't most paladins want to use Judgement of Wisdom for the additional mana back?


If it overwrites a prot pally judgement then no. The tank taking 20% more damage doesn't save healers mana, and ret pallys will be getting mana back from hitting the boss.


It wouldn't, because if the healers need/want to use JoW on a regular basis, the tank will judge light or justice.
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Postby Fridmarr » Sat Jul 26, 2008 1:33 pm

Noradin wrote:
Fridmarr wrote:
Aleriya wrote:
If you have more than 3 that are going to be judging, I'd have the extras judging justice.

Won't most paladins want to use Judgement of Wisdom for the additional mana back?


If it overwrites a prot pally judgement then no. The tank taking 20% more damage doesn't save healers mana, and ret pallys will be getting mana back from hitting the boss.


It wouldn't, because if the healers need/want to use JoW on a regular basis, the tank will judge light or justice.


Well no one is going to be using justice as their judgement for most non pvp stuff. So if you have 3 pallys in the raid, someone will have to change what they are using. It doesn't matter who judges what.
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Postby Obrimos » Sat Jul 26, 2008 1:41 pm

Fridmarr wrote:
Noradin wrote:
Fridmarr wrote:
Aleriya wrote:
If you have more than 3 that are going to be judging, I'd have the extras judging justice.

Won't most paladins want to use Judgement of Wisdom for the additional mana back?


If it overwrites a prot pally judgement then no. The tank taking 20% more damage doesn't save healers mana, and ret pallys will be getting mana back from hitting the boss.


It wouldn't, because if the healers need/want to use JoW on a regular basis, the tank will judge light or justice.


Well no one is going to be using justice as their judgement for most non pvp stuff. So if you have 3 pallys in the raid, someone will have to change what they are using. It doesn't matter who judges what.


Didn't someone on the first page say that they show up as seperate debuffs?
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Postby Fridmarr » Sat Jul 26, 2008 1:46 pm

Obrimos wrote:
Fridmarr wrote:
Noradin wrote:
Fridmarr wrote:
Aleriya wrote:
If you have more than 3 that are going to be judging, I'd have the extras judging justice.

Won't most paladins want to use Judgement of Wisdom for the additional mana back?


If it overwrites a prot pally judgement then no. The tank taking 20% more damage doesn't save healers mana, and ret pallys will be getting mana back from hitting the boss.


It wouldn't, because if the healers need/want to use JoW on a regular basis, the tank will judge light or justice.


Well no one is going to be using justice as their judgement for most non pvp stuff. So if you have 3 pallys in the raid, someone will have to change what they are using. It doesn't matter who judges what.


Didn't someone on the first page say that they show up as seperate debuffs?


Yes, I did. That's why I said "If it overwrites a prot pally judgement". We've had lots of occaisions where our buffs have appeared twice due to talents and things that made them subtley different, and in almost every case, blizzard has fixed that.

Still unless there's a pressing reason to use duplicate buffs, I would just have everyone doing something different so that it's clear.
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Postby Mithos » Sun Jul 27, 2008 6:49 am

Surely if theres a ret pala and a prot pala in the raid, one judge JoW one judge JoL? If you start judgeing the same thing then shout on TS or in raid chat..but it should be set up b efore hand anyway.

But yeah, I've bee thinking about not taking this talent either.

Then I remember that we basically get TC for free on a boss; we judge, it's up, no extra effort. It frees up a GCD for the warrior tank for more TPS and it lets DPS warriros focus on doing damage rather than juggling debuffs (they'd already have to sunder if there was no warrior tank at all)

I have tanked Felmyst solo with no warriors in the raid at all. It hurt, but it only took 3 tries to kill her (general nubbery) and would have been great to have the attack speed reduction on there. I have a DPS warr in decent gear myself, and whilst it's not really any trouble to keep up demo and sunder, it *can* be a pain to do both of those and TC seeing as you have to change stances, a mistimed heroic strike and an off hand miss can royally screw your DPS cycle if you have just changed stance.
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Postby illudin » Sun Jul 27, 2008 8:05 am

Well if they show up as seperate debuffs i wonder if it'll increase the frequency of them procing, say that the current chance to get mana back is 50% per swing then since theirs 2 wisdoms on them it's be 75% chance to get mana back
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best way to do it:

Postby Damiun » Sun Jul 27, 2008 11:05 am

heals: no thunderjudge, no critjudge
tank: thunderjudge, critjudge
dps: no thunderjuge, critjudge

heals: seal of wisdom, judgement of wisdom
tank: seal of crusade, judgement of light/wisdom/justice
dps: seal of light, jugement of wisdom/justice

because from how its been worded, the judgement doesnt debuff but assist you (jow gives you mana, jol gives you life, joj does damage), your seal puts the debuff on the mob. this allows for all 3 seals to get judged and yeah, 20% attack speed penalty for boss and 6% more raid crit :)

or am i just misunderstanding something?
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Postby Levantine » Sun Jul 27, 2008 11:09 am

I doubt the crit would stack, I'd say it's fairly safe to assume it stays 3%.
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Postby Damiun » Sun Jul 27, 2008 11:17 am

Levantine wrote:I doubt the crit would stack, I'd say it's fairly safe to assume it stays 3%.


you dont think if you have critjudge on light and critjudge on crusader you dont get 6%? they are different abilities so i would imagin it would work.
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