Judgments of the Just / thunderclap not needed?

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Judgments of the Just / thunderclap not needed?

Postby Candiru » Fri Jul 25, 2008 5:30 am

Feral druids seem to get a 50% attack speed debuff on their targets. If this works on bosses then what's the point of a 20% reduction? (Assuming they don't stack)

Elemental Shammies also get a 75% attack speed reduction! but thats only 15% chance to proc.

If you have a feral druid dpsing or tanking, then the boss will have a 50% attack speed reduction! If its balanced with that in mind, our paltry 20% will not be enough.
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Re: Judgments of the Just / thunderclap not needed?

Postby jere » Fri Jul 25, 2008 5:34 am

Candiru wrote:Feral druids seem to get a 50% attack speed debuff on their targets. If this works on bosses then what's the point of a 20% reduction? (Assuming they don't stack)

Elemental Shammies also get a 75% attack speed reduction! but thats only 15% chance to proc.

If you have a feral druid dpsing or tanking, then the boss will have a 50% attack speed reduction! If its balanced with that in mind, our paltry 20% will not be enough.


Yeah I read that too, but someone pointed me to the wowhead link for the ability. The attack speed portion isn't 10% per stack, it is actually 4% per stack, while the other effects are 10%, so it comes out to 20% attack speed reduction.
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Postby KysenMurrin » Fri Jul 25, 2008 5:35 am

The druid ability's been brought up before, and apparently it's just badly worded on tooltip. It's actually 50% movement speed, 20% melee speed reduction.
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Postby Candiru » Fri Jul 25, 2008 5:36 am

ah OK, thats better then :)

Any idea if the elemental 75% proc will work on bosses?
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Postby Argali » Fri Jul 25, 2008 6:59 am

After my initial excitement about the talent, I've now come to realise that I most probably won't take it.

For 5/10 mans, we've always survived and done well enough without a TC available.

For 25 mans, the will be a warrior around to TC. Fury/Arms warriors by rights should be keeping TC if there's no prot warr around. A lot of them don't, but I usually shout at them, and tell them to reroll rogues if all they care about is dps.
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Postby Vanifae » Fri Jul 25, 2008 7:08 am

It isn't working on Beta, or at least not showing up on Mobs I judge.
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Postby Marwan » Fri Jul 25, 2008 7:13 am

Vanifae wrote:It isn't working on Beta, or at least not showing up on Mobs I judge.


Yeah it doesn't show up as a debuff when you judge. I've tried to manually time the swings of the mobs I've been fighting but I can't really tell a difference. Although that's not the most accurate way to do it.

I hope it's just a bug, I'd want some sort debuff on the mob so that you know for sure that your ThunderJudge is up.
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Postby Lore » Fri Jul 25, 2008 7:13 am

Argali wrote:For 25 mans, the will be a warrior around to TC. Fury/Arms warriors by rights should be keeping TC if there's no prot warr around. A lot of them don't, but I usually shout at them, and tell them to reroll rogues if all they care about is dps.


Or, you could spend 2 talent points and let them worry about DPS :P

Paladins are going to be judging anyway, and it costs rage/GCD time for Warriors to TC, there's no reason to make them continue to do it when it's not necessary.
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Postby PsiVen » Fri Jul 25, 2008 7:18 am

There are plenty of situations where relying on a warrior to TC just doesn't work. JotJ is more reliable, self-controlled, and doesn't depend on a warrior being in the raid at all. Plus with progression 10-mans it will be a bigger issue than it was in Kara and ZA for the folks who already outgeared the place when it was released. Think enrage-bugged Prince for an idea of what I would expect from 10-man Patchwerk... TC is huge there.

Vanifae wrote:It isn't working on Beta, or at least not showing up on Mobs I judge.


I don't think it's a separate debuff, have you tested swing rates?
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Postby Worldie » Fri Jul 25, 2008 7:20 am

The biggest advantage of JotJ over TC is that it doesn't use any additional GCD nor energy to be used, we would spam it anyway.

JotJ is WAY superior to Thunder Clap.
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Postby Neara » Fri Jul 25, 2008 7:35 am

Marwan wrote:I'd want some sort debuff on the mob so that you know for sure that your ThunderJudge is up.



No you don't. .. 40 debuffslots is already a close call. In Wotlk we'll have Deathknights with their diseases and stuff and some classes get some extra debuffs .. Eating another slot for that, no thanks.
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Postby Tahl » Fri Jul 25, 2008 7:43 am

You could argue Thunderclap is better since it affects multiple mobs and does additional threat/damage, while ours is single target and no additional damage added to judgements from it. Not a big deal though, and ours is effectively free to use.

Seeing as TC was one of the warrior's primary advantages before, and now they've given it to all tanks, you can bet the difficulty will be balanced with the assumption that some form of melee speed reduction is up on the boss. Ironically that basically had the effect of removing TC from the game, but without as much warrior QQ. If you don't take it you'll be putting yourself at a significant disadvantage whenever you don't have someone else to do it for you. Take it!
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Postby Nadhia » Fri Jul 25, 2008 7:50 am

Also, in case of too much warlocks, their last rank of curse of weakness does the -20% attack speed, while also debuffing AP. Won't be used frequently I think, but well, just to say we won't lack of attack speed reduction in wotlk :wink:
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Postby PsiVen » Fri Jul 25, 2008 8:03 am

TBC bosses were definitely already balanced with TC in mind.

The CoW change is interesting. I wonder when it would be actually useful though, can multiple warlocks have CoR and CoW up at once?
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Postby honorshammer » Fri Jul 25, 2008 8:14 am

What I'm wondering is how they will deal with multiple Paladins judging, one with Judgement of the Just, one with new 3% crit. With even Holy judging will the debuff be overwritten if another Paladin judges the mob.

Something like this:

3 Paladins: Healz, Tankz, Painz

Healz has neither ThunderJudge nor CritJudge
Tankz has ThunderJudge
Painz has CritJudge

Tankz judges, then 1 sec later Painz judges, then Healz judges. What debuff(s) are on the mob?
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