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Mana/JoW Observation

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Mana/JoW Observation

Postby Fridmarr » Fri Jul 25, 2008 12:31 am

Something to consider about our mana and judgement of wisdom. The way it works right now, on top of procing when you hit the mob, it also procs when you judge wisdom. It seems to be about a 50% proc rate on melee hit and I think it's a 100% proc rate on the judgement.

The amount of mana you get back scales based on your AP and Spell damage. Currently, I get back around 190 mana, but the judgement only costs 150ish, so I acutally make mana by judging.

Neither our Shield Slam nor Hammer of the Righteousness are very expensive. Probably around 250 mana at level 80. Assuming a 50% proc rate on the judgement, then it seems like we'll average at least one proc during the 6 seconds those are on cooldown, making one of these skills mana free. So we'd only have to have a high enough damage intake to sustain Holy Shield and either ShoR or HotR from spiritual attunement. That sounds pretty reasonable, and we'll likely be able to mix some consecrate in there too.

The weakness that I notice is burst threat on the pull. If I'm going for high threat on the pull I'll Seal+AS+HS+Con+Judge+HotR (and at level 75 add in Shor). That combo is pretty costly, particularly the Shield toss and consecrate, but we have options there with downranking. Our new mana reduction talent being a flat decrease in mana helps here, whereas the old style that proc'd a buff when we dodge/parried wouldn't. We may have to really manage the mana right on the pull, or get used to starting out kind of low on mana. Neither should be a significant problem though.

At this point I'm feeling a bit better about mana consumption. Of course it's still really early and all of that could change, but this was one of my first concerns when I was considering we'd be using 2 more threat abilities and a very costly consecrate with gear that has zero intellect.
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Postby ulushnar » Fri Jul 25, 2008 1:55 am

I use Rank 4 consecrate on pretty much anything that isn't a Progression boss these days,. Guess i'll shift up to rank 6 with Wrath.
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Postby Kelaan » Fri Jul 25, 2008 10:31 am

Ulushnar wrote:I use Rank 4 consecrate on pretty much anything that isn't a Progression boss these days,. Guess i'll shift up to rank 6 with Wrath.


It seems also that at least SOME of the damage from consecrate has been shifted to ret aura, which if I've read correctly now appears to scale with spelldamage. Heck, I think the trained ret aura is doing around ~100/hit. (Anyone want to note what it seems to proc for in your normal tanking gear?) That already makes up for a significant amount of consecration. And, if you're worried about mana, you are probably not using Devotion.

edit: even more interesting, Holy paladins can still give it, and they too have some crazy +SP from gear/talents.
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Postby Fridmarr » Fri Jul 25, 2008 10:33 am

Kelaan wrote:
Ulushnar wrote:I use Rank 4 consecrate on pretty much anything that isn't a Progression boss these days,. Guess i'll shift up to rank 6 with Wrath.


It seems also that at least SOME of the damage from consecrate has been shifted to ret aura, which if I've read correctly now appears to scale with spelldamage. Heck, I think the trained ret aura is doing around ~100/hit. (Anyone want to note what it seems to proc for in your normal tanking gear?) That already makes up for a significant amount of consecration. And, if you're worried about mana, you are probably not using Devotion.

edit: even more interesting, Holy paladins can still give it, and they too have some crazy +SP from gear/talents.


I don't remember what it proc'd for in my normal tanking gear. When I'm wearing ret gear it procs for like 65 damage.
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Re: Mana/JoW Observation

Postby Modal » Fri Jul 25, 2008 10:35 am

Fridmarr wrote:The amount of mana you get back scales based on your AP and Spell damage. Currently, I get back around 190 mana, but the judgement only costs 150ish, so I acutally make mana by judging.


If this is true, I really cannot see any reason to take Benediction anymore. Except that we need access to Deflection. That makes it a really worthless 5-point talent--15% mana reduction on a spell you cast only once every 30 seconds? For Ret paladins with Judgements of the Wise it's even worse. Somebody on the beta forums ought to point this out. Makes the case for moving Deflection to tier 1, or at least somehow tweaking the first 2 tiers of Ret, even stronger IMO.
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Re: Mana/JoW Observation

Postby Baelor » Fri Jul 25, 2008 10:40 am

Modal wrote:
Fridmarr wrote:The amount of mana you get back scales based on your AP and Spell damage. Currently, I get back around 190 mana, but the judgement only costs 150ish, so I acutally make mana by judging.


If this is true, I really cannot see any reason to take Benediction anymore. Except that we need access to Deflection. That makes it a really worthless 5-point talent--15% mana reduction on a spell you cast only once every 30 seconds? For Ret paladins with Judgements of the Wise it's even worse. Somebody on the beta forums ought to point this out. Makes the case for moving Deflection to tier 1, or at least somehow tweaking the first 2 tiers of Ret, even stronger IMO.

I don't think *anyone* would complain at this point if Blizzard swapped the positions of Benediction and Deflection at this point. Ret Paladins are going to grab Imp. BoMight, Holy Paladins most likely will do the same, and Prot Paladins could then freely spec 5/59/7 or 5/56/10 (including Heart of the Crusader).

I, for one, would be in favor of such a talent tree swap.
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Re: Mana/JoW Observation

Postby Fridmarr » Fri Jul 25, 2008 10:45 am

Baelor wrote:
Modal wrote:
Fridmarr wrote:The amount of mana you get back scales based on your AP and Spell damage. Currently, I get back around 190 mana, but the judgement only costs 150ish, so I acutally make mana by judging.


If this is true, I really cannot see any reason to take Benediction anymore. Except that we need access to Deflection. That makes it a really worthless 5-point talent--15% mana reduction on a spell you cast only once every 30 seconds? For Ret paladins with Judgements of the Wise it's even worse. Somebody on the beta forums ought to point this out. Makes the case for moving Deflection to tier 1, or at least somehow tweaking the first 2 tiers of Ret, even stronger IMO.

I don't think *anyone* would complain at this point if Blizzard swapped the positions of Benediction and Deflection at this point. Ret Paladins are going to grab Imp. BoMight, Holy Paladins most likely will do the same, and Prot Paladins could then freely spec 5/59/7 or 5/56/10 (including Heart of the Crusader).

I, for one, would be in favor of such a talent tree swap.


Yeah that would be a great change and it makes sense with the new trees.
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Postby Modal » Fri Jul 25, 2008 10:49 am

I actually don't even think swapping Deflection and Benediction would suffice at this point---the changes to the seal/judgment system just make Benediction worthless. It needs to be scrapped or overhauled or at the very least reduced to 2 points for 10/20% or something.
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Postby Baelor » Fri Jul 25, 2008 10:52 am

Modal wrote:I actually don't even think swapping Deflection and Benediction would suffice at this point---the changes to the seal/judgment system just make Benediction worthless. It needs to be scrapped or overhauled or at the very least reduced to 2 points for 10/20% or something.

Hey, if they want to go ahead and buff the Benediction talent, I'm not going to complain! I'm just saying that if Deflection and Benediction got swapped positionally in the Ret tree, everyone would be better off, no questions asked.
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Postby Fridmarr » Fri Jul 25, 2008 10:53 am

Modal wrote:I actually don't even think swapping Deflection and Benediction would suffice at this point---the changes to the seal/judgment system just make Benediction worthless. It needs to be scrapped or overhauled or at the very least reduced to 2 points for 10/20% or something.


Yeah, but overhaul it (making it good for ret) on the second tier and move deflection down. :D
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Postby Baelor » Fri Jul 25, 2008 10:56 am

Fridmarr wrote:
Modal wrote:I actually don't even think swapping Deflection and Benediction would suffice at this point---the changes to the seal/judgment system just make Benediction worthless. It needs to be scrapped or overhauled or at the very least reduced to 2 points for 10/20% or something.


Yeah, but overhaul it (making it good for ret) on the second tier and move deflection down. :D

You know how the prot tree is bloated? ... yea... my ret spec would be 0/5/66 if they made Benediction worth my while...
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Postby Tyaera » Fri Jul 25, 2008 9:09 pm

Every single paladin talent tree is bloated.
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Postby Sabindeus » Fri Jul 25, 2008 9:11 pm

Tyaera wrote:Every single talent tree is bloated.


fixed that for you
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Postby Morendin » Sat Jul 26, 2008 8:13 am

Modal wrote:I actually don't even think swapping Deflection and Benediction would suffice at this point---the changes to the seal/judgment system just make Benediction worthless. It needs to be scrapped or overhauled or at the very least reduced to 2 points for 10/20% or something.

remember, you're only resealing every 30 seconds now, too...I'd be on the fence about it if it was anything less than 100% reduction. 15% was ok in vanilla. not really good, but a 'hey, why not, I need to get deeper in the tree and imp BoM is underwhelming'
in vanilla, you had seals, judgements, heals and maybe consecrate to spend mana on, basically.
Holy Shield was a gimmick
CS didn't exist
holy shock was laughable

so that was 15% off of most of your offensive mana consumption(heck, pre-1.9, it affected consecrate, which was NICE, it's always been a mana-hog)
in wotlk?
over 30 seconds, you could have, crudely:
5 HotR @ ~250/each, 1250
5 ShoR @ ~250/each, 1250
4 Judgements @ ~150/each 600
1 seal ~400
4 cons @ 600-1600/ each 1800-6400 (downranking manditory in non-infinite mana situations, and yeah, it could line up that you only get 3 in a given 30s, bite me)
3 holy shield @ 300/each 900
1 AS @ 700-1600
up to 5 HoW @ 400+ (can't recall lvl80 cost) 2000+


with a favorable set of cooldowns for benediction, it saves 150 mana/ 30 seconds.
out of, at minimum, 7500. maxing consecrate, AS and < 35% hp?
14,500 mana.
grap.
that.
noise.
25/mp5 at level grapping 80 for 5 grapping talent points?
for a TANK spending 1250 Mana/5 minimum, and north of 2500 MP5 at max threat mode, nevermind Holy Wrath and exorcism, in an undead-themed expansion?


numbers for ret:
4 judgements
1 seal
5 CS god only knows...400?
3 Divine Storm I'm going to pull 400 out of my ass
0-3 consecrate 600/each, ret will never be able to spring for R7
5 HoW under 35% 400+ each
2 exorcism 600?
.

again, 25 mp5 vs 1000 MP5 used, ballpark

it needs a ground-up redesign.

possibilities:
decent
improve procrate of judgements and/or seals by 10/20/30/40/50%?
improve SA in some fashion
-15% cost to all offensive abilities

awesome:
keep name, move to deep holy, make offensive crits refund 20/40/60/80/100% of damage dealt as mana(coupled with ALL paladin cast time spells clipping but not resetting the autoattack timer)

would make for an interesting mechanic where holy is interested in weapons that are as close as possible to an integer multiple of 1.5 or 2.0(depending on the spell they choose to chaincast) without going over, to minimize time wasted by the spells preventing an autoattack from firing until cast, and giving Holy an 'active regen' mode by switching to a beefy twohander and SoW and swinging away, using a FoL/HL/FoL/HL rotation to allow a ~3.5 speed weapon to fire almost on the dot, at the cost of ~400 SP if no 'healing 2h maces' exist
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Postby Modal » Sat Jul 26, 2008 8:18 am

Yes, it does need a ground up redesign. now let's get somebody to explain that in the beta forums.
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