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Paladin tanking weapons

All things related to the expansion

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Postby Hearthy » Fri Jul 25, 2008 12:08 pm

Neara wrote:maybe i missed something .. but isn't HoTR an instant attack with a Cooldown? if so having a fast or slow weapon doesn't change how often you can use HoTR


HotR is based on weapon damage and slower weapons have a higher damage range. You can't use it more/less often, but it hits harder with a slower weapon.

I assume he wants a faster weapon to smooth out seal damage, not HotR damage.
Last edited by Hearthy on Fri Jul 25, 2008 12:10 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Postby Kayoto » Fri Jul 25, 2008 12:08 pm

Playing a tankadin will finally have a decently high skill cap, or, at the very least, we'll have more buttons to press (which I enjoy).

It seems like some people complain that it might actually take some modicum of skill outside of knowing how to gear yourself to play their class, which is mildly amusing. I can understand that it was nice to maintain a higher level of situational awareness as the tank in some encounters, due to having less things to do, but really, managing your abilities and proving yourself to be a skilled player/tank is infinitely more fun. To me, at least.

Also, this nonsense about a slow weapon having any consequences with relation to HotR missing is ridiculous. Hammer of the Righteous is an INSTANT ATTACK that has a 6 second cooldown -- if you miss with it, regardless of whether your weapon speed is 1.0 or 9001.0, you'll be able to use HotR again after 6 seconds have elapsed.

Let me reiterate, so no more posts are made that hurt my head:

There is absolutely zero downside to using a slow weapon with relation to Hammer of the Righteous. The only thing a slow weapon does negatively is create a larger gap in-between successful WHITE hits, it does not negatively affect your abilities (including HotR) in any way.
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Postby agamemnoch » Fri Jul 25, 2008 12:44 pm

Kayoto wrote:Playing a tankadin will finally have a decently high skill cap, or, at the very least, we'll have more buttons to press (which I enjoy).

It seems like some people complain that it might actually take some modicum of skill outside of knowing how to gear yourself to play their class, which is mildly amusing. I can understand that it was nice to maintain a higher level of situational awareness as the tank in some encounters, due to having less things to do, but really, managing your abilities and proving yourself to be a skilled player/tank is infinitely more fun. To me, at least.

Also, this nonsense about a slow weapon having any consequences with relation to HotR missing is ridiculous. Hammer of the Righteous is an INSTANT ATTACK that has a 6 second cooldown -- if you miss with it, regardless of whether your weapon speed is 1.0 or 9001.0, you'll be able to use HotR again after 6 seconds have elapsed.

Let me reiterate, so no more posts are made that hurt my head:

There is absolutely zero downside to using a slow weapon with relation to Hammer of the Righteous. The only thing a slow weapon does negatively is create a larger gap in-between successful WHITE hits, it does not negatively affect your abilities (including HotR) in any way.


Except that there will be seals to help keep our "white hits" giving us back yellow damage. Maybe I would be OK with a slower weapon using SoCor, I have to try it out. I still think of 2.0 as "slow" so going to a 2.6 or something is insane to me. I can think of it as some mitigation with fewer parries but I am used to having SoR do a lot of dmg and threat for me.

Also,

Kyoto, the issue was not about whether HoTR is instant or not. The issue was the losing of the BENEFIT of a slow weapon if HoTR misses 2 or 3 times in a row, in that we benefit from holy dmg for threat a LOT more than white damage.

I am hitting a lot less often on seals with a slow weapon. Even if they are normalized for the weapon speed, I can miss more frequently and get more spikey threat as opposed to smooth threat from a more medium paced weapon.

The issue is not simply the implication to one of our skills. It is a fundamental shift from our old method (horde side) of fast weapon gives less SoR but keeps it more constant as opposed to the method of a slow weapon giving a higher dmg on hit, but a miss penalty results.

Slow weapons with a decent miss chance (and bosses are a lot harder to hit, but it will remain to be seen how our +hit and expertise plays out) could actually LOWER our total TPS than a slightly faster weapon with lower per dmg application due to misses being less of a penalty.
Last edited by agamemnoch on Fri Jul 25, 2008 12:48 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Postby Grothnir » Fri Jul 25, 2008 12:47 pm

Agamemnoch wrote:Except that there will be seals to help keep our "white hits" giving us back yellow damage. Maybe I would be OK with a slower weapon using SoCor, I have to try it out. I still think of 2.0 as "slow" so going to a 2.6 or something is insane to me. I can think of it as some mitigation with fewer parries but I am used to having SoR do a lot of dmg and threat for me.

There's a fair amount of hit gear out there already in WotLK, and we still have stronger passive threat generation than warriors.

I think you're making a mountain out of a molehill.
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Postby agamemnoch » Fri Jul 25, 2008 12:56 pm

Grothnir wrote:
Agamemnoch wrote:Except that there will be seals to help keep our "white hits" giving us back yellow damage. Maybe I would be OK with a slower weapon using SoCor, I have to try it out. I still think of 2.0 as "slow" so going to a 2.6 or something is insane to me. I can think of it as some mitigation with fewer parries but I am used to having SoR do a lot of dmg and threat for me.

There's a fair amount of hit gear out there already in WotLK, and we still have stronger passive threat generation than warriors.

I think you're making a mountain out of a molehill.


I think I am just concerned until I have proof otherwise. I want to test it out with different speeds and see how my threat scales. I thought that was one of the points of this place.
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Postby Fridmarr » Fri Jul 25, 2008 1:00 pm

Agamemnoch wrote:
Fridmarr wrote:
Agamemnoch wrote:I don't know. I'd still like to have a medium speed weapon just "in case" I hate missing my target. Does HoTR have a "Hit" mechanic or is it like JoB where it always hits?

A miss 3 times in a row on HoTR AND a slow weapon seem like a clothie gib fest to me.


Well we have our shield toss, HotR, ShoR, Opening Swing, a Judgement, and we could even have a consecrate down. Surely you can land one of those?


That I understand, I was just worried about a bad string where a single talent is supposed to be the majority of our threat. If there are other things that can make up for it, great.

I still don't plan on spamming EVERYTHING on EVERY cool down unless it is a DPS race and they are catching up to me. Otherwise I could have just rolled a warrior.

I have seen less burnout on paladins because we were explicitly NOT cool down chasers to the extent they were.


Well basing this off of current data, HotR is not even close to our single biggest threat move. Judgement hits for more and so will ShoR most likely. In fact ShoR (based off of TBC reachable block values) will pretty massive.

Now it could be that HotR is bugged as the scaling right now is crazy wierd, but at 800 BV you are looking at 1600 ShoR hits.
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Postby agamemnoch » Fri Jul 25, 2008 1:02 pm

If it is not a big deal, I may go the "middle of the road" way and get a medium speed weapon, maybe toss spell power on it and call it a day.

WTB a +91 holy dmg enchant :)
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Postby Aertho » Fri Jul 25, 2008 1:28 pm

<stupid tank

What is medium speed?

I assume 1.8 is "fast" (tank swords and rogue daggers) and 2.6 is "slow" (shaman fists). What satisfactory weapons exist in the 2.2-2.3 range that I could be looking for?
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Postby agamemnoch » Fri Jul 25, 2008 1:30 pm

well, right now I am using a 1.6 speed hammer/mace.

<1.6-1.8 or so is fast
1.9-2.3 is medium.

Anything higher is slow

These are the arbitrary values I considered when I made my statements.

Here are some worth having:

http://www.wowhead.com/?item=33388
http://www.wowhead.com/?item=23540
http://www.wowhead.com/?item=23544
http://www.wowhead.com/?item=29156
http://www.wowhead.com/?item=29165
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Postby Whimsy » Fri Jul 25, 2008 1:56 pm

Much depends on the unexplored "high threat" aspect of HotR.

As a tank, I am much more concerned with threat than damage.

If HOTR generates threat through a damage multiplier (for example 200% of damage), then I would be very concerned about total weapon damage. Some theorycrafting will have to be done to identify what weapon speed maximizes your HOTR threat without too much loss of threat from seal procs. In this world, I'll want a weapon that's slow but not too slow.

However, if HOTR adds a set amount of innate threat per application, then I am less concerned about HOTR's weapon damage. I'll want a fast weapon.

Most tanking talents currently use an innate threat method. FOr example, Sunder Armor applies damage +301 threat at level 70. I know that Blizzard is planning to change some of the warrior talents so that threat scales better with gear. But we really can't have a definitive conversation about this until somebody with access to the beta reverse-engineers the math behind HOTR's threat.
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Postby Modal » Fri Jul 25, 2008 2:33 pm

Agamemnoch wrote:Slow weapons with a decent miss chance (and bosses are a lot harder to hit, but it will remain to be seen how our +hit and expertise plays out) could actually LOWER our total TPS than a slightly faster weapon with lower per dmg application due to misses being less of a penalty.


You had a minor point when you were worried about an unlucky couple of misses right at the start of a fight (although we front-load threat pretty well if we want to anyway), but a slow weapon shouldn't lower your overall TPS at all. It won't increase your miss chance, and so the total lost holy damage will be the same % of your overall damage. On a moderately long fight it shouldn't affect your tps at all.
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Postby agamemnoch » Fri Jul 25, 2008 2:38 pm

Modal wrote:
Agamemnoch wrote:Slow weapons with a decent miss chance (and bosses are a lot harder to hit, but it will remain to be seen how our +hit and expertise plays out) could actually LOWER our total TPS than a slightly faster weapon with lower per dmg application due to misses being less of a penalty.


You had a minor point when you were worried about an unlucky couple of misses right at the start of a fight (although we front-load threat pretty well if we want to anyway), but a slow weapon shouldn't lower your overall TPS at all. It won't increase your miss chance, and so the total lost holy damage will be the same % of your overall damage. On a moderately long fight it shouldn't affect your tps at all.


No, a slow weapon does not increase our miss chance. It simply increases the penalty for a miss. This part also is not a concern simply for the beginning of a fight, but rather towards the middle/end when I am starting to get mana starved, a Pot is on cooldown and I have mages hitting crits and catching up to me. THAT is what I am worried about.

A few misses along with missing a HoTR or something (maybe twice or three times) will cause me to slip on threat as opposed to not scaling up as fast with a slower weapon.
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Postby Modal » Fri Jul 25, 2008 2:41 pm

Right, it can, possibly, make your threat more spiky if you get really unlucky. I guess if you are really, really worried about that it might be worth lowering your HotR threat and damage in order to compensate for it.

But in your previous post you raised the possibility that a slower weapon would lower your overall TPS from SoR. That just doesn't make sense.
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Postby Fridmarr » Fri Jul 25, 2008 2:43 pm

Agamemnoch wrote:
Modal wrote:
Agamemnoch wrote:Slow weapons with a decent miss chance (and bosses are a lot harder to hit, but it will remain to be seen how our +hit and expertise plays out) could actually LOWER our total TPS than a slightly faster weapon with lower per dmg application due to misses being less of a penalty.


You had a minor point when you were worried about an unlucky couple of misses right at the start of a fight (although we front-load threat pretty well if we want to anyway), but a slow weapon shouldn't lower your overall TPS at all. It won't increase your miss chance, and so the total lost holy damage will be the same % of your overall damage. On a moderately long fight it shouldn't affect your tps at all.


No, a slow weapon does not increase our miss chance. It simply increases the penalty for a miss. This part also is not a concern simply for the beginning of a fight, but rather towards the middle/end when I am starting to get mana starved, a Pot is on cooldown and I have mages hitting crits and catching up to me. THAT is what I am worried about.

A few misses along with missing a HoTR or something (maybe twice or three times) will cause me to slip on threat as opposed to not scaling up as fast with a slower weapon.


That's not true, over the course of a fight it equals out. You will miss on more swings with a faster weapon, the net result is a wash. You are trying to narrow things down to a specific point in time, and say if I miss right now it has a bigger penalty than if you missed earlier or later, because of the time until the next swing. That generally only matters at the pull and after aggro wipes. In both cases you have plenty of skills to help you out.

Now there are some differences. SoV is currently procing on every hit, favoring a fast weapon, since I don't believe weapon speed is a factor in the damage (I may be wrong about that). Mana gains from JoW now are a bit bigger, and while still not a huge source of threat the faster you hit the more procs you'll get, which also equates to more mana to spam threat skills. We'll have to wait and see about many things before any type of hands down rule can be applied, if one even can.
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Postby Modal » Fri Jul 25, 2008 3:21 pm

It's true that thinking about SoV might make a difference. Even with lower HotR damage, you might be able to generate crazy threat on 3 mobs by keeping a stack of SoV on each of them. With guaranteed application and a fast weapon, that will be much less frustrating than now. So that might be a reason to prefer a faster weapon.
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