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the new 40/21 spec?

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the new 40/21 spec?

Postby Damiun » Thu Jul 24, 2008 1:09 am

http://www.worldofwarcraft.com/info/cla ... 0000000000

Sheath of Light+Touched by the Light

We get mass str right? So... This takes advantage of the strength with more spell damage.

Same criticisms as current 40/21 spec. Missing out on Shield Spec, missing out on Ardent Defender, missing out on Judgements of the Just.

Anyone else's thoughts?
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Postby Jerey-Darkspear » Thu Jul 24, 2008 2:00 pm

If any of the new threat abilities can crit and SotM gets the benefits I think it'll get (looking for test results still), consider the 5% crit talent over 3/3 Crusade and not sure where you'd want to pull the other two points from, but they're there somewhere.

Also, you're likely to be the only paladin with BoK, so Benediction instead of IBoM since you'll never get to cast BoM anyway.
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Postby Worldie » Thu Jul 24, 2008 2:23 pm

I'd not agree, when tanking in wotlk my blessing of choices are likely going Kings + Might.

All our main damage skills scale with AP and spelldam now
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Postby Jerey-Darkspear » Thu Jul 24, 2008 2:28 pm

Worldie wrote:I'd not agree, when tanking in wotlk my blessing of choices are likely going Kings + Might.

All our main damage skills scale with AP and spelldam now


I fully agree with this sentiment, however, if you're the kings paladin, you can't cast kings and might. Plus, with holy going into the ret tree for the 23 points, it'd make sense for them to get IBoM and do might/wis with us on kings.

It's the same reason we grab imp devo aura when we'd prob rather run ret aura for the threat.
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Postby Obrimos » Sat Jul 26, 2008 8:19 am

Jerey-Darkspear wrote:
Worldie wrote:I'd not agree, when tanking in wotlk my blessing of choices are likely going Kings + Might.

All our main damage skills scale with AP and spelldam now


I fully agree with this sentiment, however, if you're the kings paladin, you can't cast kings and might. Plus, with holy going into the ret tree for the 23 points, it'd make sense for them to get IBoM and do might/wis with us on kings.

It's the same reason we grab imp devo aura when we'd prob rather run ret aura for the threat.


But they'll also be Judging a lot more than us and not getting hit to get mana back.

Holy has that whole spell haste thign going on for Judgements, making Benediction even more tempting.
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Postby Daredevil » Sat Jul 26, 2008 9:36 am

I really think we won't need more spell damage than we will already get from stam convertion. Hence, I see no point in picking up Sheath of Light for tanking.

I can only hope they'll change our sets to reflect it...
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Postby Damiun » Sat Jul 26, 2008 12:24 pm

Daredevil wrote:I really think we won't need more spell damage than we will already get from stam convertion. Hence, I see no point in picking up Sheath of Light for tanking.

I can only hope they'll change our sets to reflect it...


You dont get the point.

From t4-t5 and even early t6 paladins can easily get enough spell damage to hold sufficient threat. As you get into late t6/sunwell your threat sucks so you go 0/40/21.

My question is *IF* there are threat issues again would this spec be as viable as the 0/40/21. With 500 str thats 1k ap and an extra 300 spell damage.

Asuming level 80 you will have 2k stam fully buffd (random number) you will get 600 spell damage. Now a lot of paladins in t6/sunwell have more spell damage then that.

Plus we are losing salv so we must have enough threat to hold off unsalved locks/rogues. So this spec is a pure threat spec really.

edit: also in addition im not sure about you all but frmo a rogue's point of view i perfer might over kings.
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Postby Macha » Sat Jul 26, 2008 1:09 pm

I don't think this spec will be anywhere near our current 40/21.

What do you win by taking Sheath of Light?
-Crusade, and 300 Spelldamage, if we use your own numbers. [BTW: In reality, the numbers will be higher, though, due to attackpower buffs across the raid]

What do we lose by taking Sheath of Light?
-5 points in the Seal Improvement in Holy
-Ardent Defender
-Judgement of the Just (hello?)
-Hammer of the Righteous

If the 300 spelldamage+crusade improve our threat like they do now, they will give us something between 150 and 200(if it's going great) TPS

In other words, this spec would only be superior for threat against targets that matter when Hammer of the Righteous deals less than 200 TPS in your own numbers. (ignoring improved seal damage etc)

Hammer of the Righteous has a six second cooldown. This means a single hit by hammer of the righteous has to do more aggro than either 900 or 1200. This means the individual damage has to be 474 or 631 respectively.

We already see 700ish crits on level 70 with level 70 weapons that are not even getting the benefit from STR-Attackpower because the ability is bugged. We are not even considering the weapondamage itself, which will also raise. We are not considering multiple damage buffs (the AP ones will also improve spelldamage, granted). We are not even considering that the Hammer of the Righteous does cause "High Threat", which will in itself most likely boost the threat far above Sheath of Light.

In other words, even if the spec you mention DOES do higher threat, which is at the moment unknown and already doubtful, it will most likely do so only by a small amount. This is nothing like Sanctity aura right now - for which we only give up Ardent Defender and a pulling tool, and gain a significant threat advantage in every fight.

On top of it, the threat you gain is expensive threat. The abilities that are affected by spelldamage the most are all rather expensive. Those that aren't are cheap.


Your spec is only good at one thing: Aoe tanking trash. It is a respec spec, if you lack a proper Protection Paladin and want one of your Paladins to respec for a fight to hold adds - this spec would absolutely maximize AOE threat. For a Paladin who wants to do more than that, I would hazard the guess that going all the way in prot will always be a better choice.

So no: Your spec is not a pure Threat spec. Your spec is a pure AOE Threat spec.

So far, unless Hammer of the Righteous is meant to scale the way it does(which is highly doubtful), Spelldamage seems to be a downright inferior threat stat for anything that isn't a swarm of angry ghouls :)

edit: also in addition im not sure about you all but frmo a rogue's point of view i perfer might over kings.


But we aren't rogues. We also benefit from stamina(in your example, 2k stamina alone would mean kings giving 200 stamina - that's 60 spelldamage) and would get a lot of leverage in strength scaling due to the 15% talented increase.
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Postby Tycho » Sat Jul 26, 2008 3:25 pm

Damiun wrote:
Daredevil wrote:I really think we won't need more spell damage than we will already get from stam convertion. Hence, I see no point in picking up Sheath of Light for tanking.

I can only hope they'll change our sets to reflect it...


You dont get the point.

From t4-t5 and even early t6 paladins can easily get enough spell damage to hold sufficient threat. As you get into late t6/sunwell your threat sucks so you go 0/40/21.


Except that new talents and mechanics are being introduced to resolve this - a holy shield slam, a holy swipe, +15% damage for HS/AS/ShoR, a shedload of strength + dps/tank sword usage, etc.

It seems rather unlikely that there will be the same issues given that we have even *more* tools to actively build threat.

Asuming level 80 you will have 2k stam fully buffd (random number) you will get 600 spell damage. Now a lot of paladins in t6/sunwell have more spell damage then that.


From what I understand SD, while important, will play a smaller role in the new world order of pally tanking. I don't think this will be much of an issue. Plus you can still jack your warlock's dps weapon drop for bonus threat: "Excuse me sir, Federal Tank Bureau, I'm going to have to commandeer this weapon sir for official business!" :-)

Plus we are losing salv so we must have enough threat to hold off unsalved locks/rogues. So this spec is a pure threat spec really.


I'm fairly certain that it's been stated that they want to finesse the threat issue a bit. They didn't like how far-and-away superior salv was to the other blessings, hence why the tank classes are getting their bonus threat talents rolled into baseline abilities, and most classes are getting some bonus threat reduction (i.e. dps wars are getting 10% more reduction).

edit: also in addition im not sure about you all but frmo a rogue's point of view i perfer might over kings.


Agree. Kings is nice and all, but Might/Wisdom are generally better blessings (esp. with the improved Improved Might).
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Postby Sepaticaus » Sat Jul 26, 2008 3:34 pm

Umm, I doubt you'll have threat problems with Hammer of the Righteous and Shield of Righteousness... In addition to our current arsenal of threat generation.

Both are on six second cooldown, which means they are very spammable and output a LOT of threat. Which means we won't be completely lost as OTs and we will have way better threat gen as MTs.
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