A thought for Imp. Holy Shield...

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Postby theshard » Wed Jul 23, 2008 5:01 pm

I thought it would be interesting if they added a talent that renewed Holy Shield but at a lesser cost. Similar to devastate. Alot of classes seemed to get a talent that renewed an ability, it just seems to go with the flow.
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Postby Mavrix » Wed Jul 23, 2008 7:07 pm

Kinda like SoV/SoCor?
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Postby Tev » Wed Jul 23, 2008 11:41 pm

With regards to warriors on rage, they take damage, they gain rage, they avoid damage, they gain rage, they deal damage, they gain rage. For paladins, we take damage.... nothing until we are healed, we avoid damage... nothing at all, we deal damage, we hope for a SoW/JoW proc.

That 2 rage they get on a dodge/parry is 2% of their rage, I'm sure paladins wouldn't mind getting back 2% mana on a dodge/parry. At level 70, warriors also gain 1 rage for every 109.88 damage received (source: http://www.wowwiki.com/Formulas:Rage_generation)... at 5k mana it takes 500 healing received to get 50 (1%) mana back, with a cap against overheal.

Taking damage is the main part of how prot warriors get rage and a big part of how paladins get back mana. So you can see there is a big disparity, and while I realize its a bit of an apples and oranges comparison, it does show that warriors have a more consistent capability to regain their lost rage while tanking.

Fact is both classes will suffer from rage/mana starvation due to being overgeared (or just well geared) for an encounter and its something I've been hoping they would address for a long time. Mana back on a HS block would be ideal imo for paladins, and better avoidance rage generation for warriors.
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Postby Splug » Thu Jul 24, 2008 10:22 am

Tev wrote:With regards to warriors on rage, they take damage, they gain rage, they avoid damage, they gain rage, they deal damage, they gain rage. For paladins, we take damage.... nothing until we are healed, we avoid damage... nothing at all, we deal damage, we hope for a SoW/JoW proc.

That 2 rage they get on a dodge/parry is 2% of their rage, I'm sure paladins wouldn't mind getting back 2% mana on a dodge/parry. At level 70, warriors also gain 1 rage for every 109.88 damage received (source: http://www.wowwiki.com/Formulas:Rage_generation)... at 5k mana it takes 500 healing received to get 50 (1%) mana back, with a cap against overheal.

Taking damage is the main part of how prot warriors get rage and a big part of how paladins get back mana. So you can see there is a big disparity, and while I realize its a bit of an apples and oranges comparison, it does show that warriors have a more consistent capability to regain their lost rage while tanking.

Fact is both classes will suffer from rage/mana starvation due to being overgeared (or just well geared) for an encounter and its something I've been hoping they would address for a long time. Mana back on a HS block would be ideal imo for paladins, and better avoidance rage generation for warriors.
While your numbers for rage/mana income look correct, you're only comparing half of the equation. Warrior rage moves faster both ways - faster income, but faster expenses too. It looks like hammer and shield of the righteous require 6% of base manapool per cast - with AI, mark, and kings that's going to clock in at less than 6% of your actual mana, and that's before tallents. Fully tallented, shield slam is 17 rage. That's about 3x the cost of the untallented, unbuffed paladin's shield of the righteousness. Throw in the tallents and the disparity on rage/mana income from damage taken is more or less resolved by a similar disparity on rage/mana expense, for everything except consecration, which is starting to look like it's going to be phased out of single-target rotations.

As for the gap on rage from autoattack versus mana from JoW/SoW, keep in mind that heroic strike is another major part of warrior threat, and that it replaces autoattack, meaning no rage is generated. There's more control than the 50% proc rate on wisdom, but over the course of a fight it probably works out pretty close.

As for rage regenerated by parry/dodge, the tallent accomplishes something that is certainly needed but does so in such a minor way that it's really not worth skipping the alternatives in my mind. I'm not writing it off as worthless quite yet, but I'm thus far unimpressed. Don't forget that even if paladins never get outside the five second rule, blessing of wisdom should be regularly available in raids, and generates a moderate amount of passive mana - anger management generates a similar but arguably lesser effect, if a warrior is willing to go 11+ into arms.

Basically, I agree with your final paragraph; it's a problem for both classes, and while Blizzard is on the right track with tallents like stalwart protector, they're not quite there.

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Postby Lemondish » Sun Aug 03, 2008 8:51 am

Splug wrote:While your numbers for rage/mana income look correct, you're only comparing half of the equation. Warrior rage moves faster both ways - faster income, but faster expenses too. It looks like hammer and shield of the righteous require 6% of base manapool per cast - with AI, mark, and kings that's going to clock in at less than 6% of your actual mana, and that's before tallents. Fully tallented, shield slam is 17 rage. That's about 3x the cost of the untallented, unbuffed paladin's shield of the righteousness. Throw in the tallents and the disparity on rage/mana income from damage taken is more or less resolved by a similar disparity on rage/mana expense, for everything except consecration, which is starting to look like it's going to be phased out of single-target rotations.


Agreed, but now this conversation seems to be moving to a "who is worse off" rather than ideas for a fix. Perhaps a fix on the Paladin side of things will move a similar idea to the warriors, or vice versa.

Splug wrote:As for the gap on rage from autoattack versus mana from JoW/SoW, keep in mind that heroic strike is another major part of warrior threat, and that it replaces autoattack, meaning no rage is generated. There's more control than the 50% proc rate on wisdom, but over the course of a fight it probably works out pretty close.


I don't understand your argument here. Its an ability you choose to use, just like every Paladin ability is an ability chosen for use, the only difference is that the Warrior can choose to regain rage or choose to spend it on extra threat, especially since the warrior knows that he/she can make this choice often. The Paladin does not have this choice. I do not believe this specific instance is much of a problem however, should a proper fix be put into place.

Splug wrote:As for rage regenerated by parry/dodge, the tallent accomplishes something that is certainly needed but does so in such a minor way that it's really not worth skipping the alternatives in my mind. I'm not writing it off as worthless quite yet, but I'm thus far unimpressed. Don't forget that even if paladins never get outside the five second rule, blessing of wisdom should be regularly available in raids, and generates a moderate amount of passive mana - anger management generates a similar but arguably lesser effect, if a warrior is willing to go 11+ into arms.


Blessing of Wisdom does not scale, and with a fixed mana pool gives the same bonus when the same rank is on a level 70 as if it was on a level 80 character. I do not forsee mp5/spirit becoming a major component of Plate tanking gear, however I may be mistaken (but it seems highly unlikely). So unfortunately it isn't as beneficial as it may seem. We're a class with a dependence on mana, but with only one spell we use to regenerate it. This puts us on at new baseline, but does nothing to fix the problem, its just slightly less bad so to speak.
The thing I believe that talent also addresses is a Warriors current inability to properly AE tank, which has been confirmed to be the next focus of attention. The devs believe all tanks should be capable of tanking everything from 5 mans to 25 mans. An AE tanking scenario where more attackers are focsed on the warrior will provide more rage to use on things like Thunderclap, Bloodbath, Cleave, Sweeping Strikes (now baseline), and Shockwave. Whether the numbers are there to allow this is unknown to me, but the easiest thing for them to change is numbers.

Splug wrote:Basically, I agree with your final paragraph; it's a problem for both classes, and while Blizzard is on the right track with tallents like stalwart protector, they're not quite there.

-Splug


An all too true comment, and I'm confident given the knowledge the developers have gained from vanilla into tbc, we'll see some proper solutions.
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Postby Sechs » Sun Aug 03, 2008 12:38 pm

Getting 1-2% mana back on every holy shield block would be so over power. Solo farming would have no down time what so ever and depending on gear you could pull 15-20 mobbs at a time.

I still think its to early to be concerned with mana starvation. We just have to wait and see how it turns out in worst case scenario you can always get a TPS set and a Main tank set. In my current tps set mana problems really is not that much of a concern i figure it stays the same in wotlk.
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Postby Lemondish » Sun Aug 03, 2008 12:49 pm

Sechs wrote:Getting 1-2% mana back on every holy shield block would be so over power. Solo farming would have no down time what so ever and depending on gear you could pull 15-20 mobbs at a time.


With a healer you can pull any amount of mobs you like. I'm sure that pulling 15-20 mobs at a time would certainly diminish our health before we started caring about our mana.

Sechs wrote:I still think its to early to be concerned with mana starvation. We just have to wait and see how it turns out in worst case scenario you can always get a TPS set and a Main tank set. In my current tps set mana problems really is not that much of a concern i figure it stays the same in wotlk.


Why would you relegate tanks to the only class that needs two differing sets in order to do the same thing? If that was Blizzards intent I would then expect to see 'threat sets' become a part of our tier choices.

As you gain gear you are supposed to gain in strength. Your character becomes more powerful and you're capable of killing stronger things. Its the simple fundamental formula of the RPG. Unfortunately, with tanks in WoW, the better your gear gets the more limited you are in what you choose to do. It doesn't make sense that well geared folk have trouble with lower content.
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Postby Sharlos » Sun Aug 03, 2008 2:43 pm

How much rage a warrior gains/spends is fairly irrelevant. What is relevant is that both paladins and warriors become less effective as they get better gear.

I don't care how you spin it but that is broken. Hardly gamebreaking seeing we've managed a whole expansion with the problem but it is something I'd like fixed.

Guarded by the light seemed a nice idea but now it is almost the same as shield of the templar, another ability that simply reduces the mana cost of our abilities.

We need something that reduces the mana we spend when we take less damage (and hence mana we receive).
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Postby Candiru » Sun Aug 03, 2008 3:56 pm

It kind of reminds me of Ogre Battle in a way: In that game if a high level character was pitted against a much lower level one, the higher level one would win, easily, but loose "Ali" which was alignment. If you killed enough low people people with your high levels, they would become evil, and a Knight would become an evil Wild Man rather than a Paladin.

This mechanic discouraged slaughtering loads of lower level people would you could end a level, unless you wanted to be evil!

Its kind of the same for tanks, you outgear the encounter, the mobs know they cannot hurt you, so why do they attack you? Much more sensible to try to kill someone else than the invulnerable outgeared tank!

You want them to feel like they are doing well!

(and you can always take off your pants, or use a Petrified Lichen Guard for a heroic)
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Postby Makaijin » Sun Aug 03, 2008 8:56 pm

Instead of getting mana returns per block, why not have a talent that increases the proc rate of our Judgements? Since we won't be Judging Crusader, for tanking it's mostly wisdom, or light to a lesser extent. The increased proc rate only works on yourself, or judgments will become very OP. Having JoW proccing at 100% through talents would actually help with our offtanking (second in threat) as well as our mana starvation problem, since mana regen is guaranteed.

JoW now scales with SP and AP. The better geared you are, the less damage you take, meaning less mana. But because JoW scales with gear, more mana is returned the better geared we are, balancing things. For warriors and druid it's similar. They generate more rage per white hit with better gear. But since JoW isn't reliable, the talent makes the regen guaranteed, dependable, and gives us more control.

It's not perfect, and to be quite frank, it's just another way to make our regen mechanics to match that of rage users. Probably doesn't even completely solve our mana problems. It's a start, and it actually improves our OTing more than anything else.
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Postby Ahms » Sun Aug 03, 2008 9:59 pm

judgments of the wise is awesome. from all the vids/beta testimonials i've seen it looks like a ret paladin almost has a rage bar now

i want to say 'make it in a lower tier', but i think that would make it so you'd always have to have something in ret, no matter what your spec. i wish it wish baseline hehehehe :D
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Postby Sharlos » Sun Aug 03, 2008 10:49 pm

Ahms wrote:judgments of the wise is awesome. from all the vids/beta testimonials i've seen it looks like a ret paladin almost has a rage bar now

i want to say 'make it in a lower tier', but i think that would make it so you'd always have to have something in ret, no matter what your spec. i wish it wish baseline hehehehe :D

That's while soloing/5mannig tho. With 25 other people in the raid the ret paladin will rarely be receiving much of that mana. Of course this talent helps ret's mana problems where it needs it the most: small groups.
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Postby PsiVen » Mon Aug 04, 2008 7:22 am

I think the real problem with this is that our mana is only a raiding issue when we aren't being hit, and this talent will do nothing about that.
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Postby Lemondish » Mon Aug 04, 2008 7:36 am

PsiVen wrote:I think the real problem with this is that our mana is only a raiding issue when we aren't being hit, and this talent will do nothing about that.


Extremely true. This imp-hs idea only solves part of the problem, that being over-gearing an instance. We need something dedicated and scalable, just like Judgments of the Wise is scalable.

As it stands, both Alliance AND Horde Retribution Paladins have a version of Seal of Blood, which has a very unique way of working with Spiritual Attunement. I don't expect Retribution to have mana issues in raids even if Judgments of the Wise doesn't return as much as if it was a smaller group.
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Postby Jonlo » Mon Aug 04, 2008 8:04 am

Candiru wrote:It kind of reminds me of Ogre Battle in a way: In that game if a high level character was pitted against a much lower level one, the higher level one would win, easily, but loose "Ali" which was alignment. If you killed enough low people people with your high levels, they would become evil, and a Knight would become an evil Wild Man rather than a Paladin.

This mechanic discouraged slaughtering loads of lower level people would you could end a level, unless you wanted to be evil!

Its kind of the same for tanks, you outgear the encounter, the mobs know they cannot hurt you, so why do they attack you? Much more sensible to try to kill someone else than the invulnerable outgeared tank!

You want them to feel like they are doing well!

(and you can always take off your pants, or use a Petrified Lichen Guard for a heroic)


God, I love Ogre Battle and OB64 and Tactics Ogre... Such good games...
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