A thought for Imp. Holy Shield...

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A thought for Imp. Holy Shield...

Postby Korangar » Wed Jul 23, 2008 8:29 am

As I know has already been discussed, there are quite a few of us on the fence with Improved Holy Shield now, given that our tree is ridiculously bloated and we already have 6 charges on the base HS now, with a better cooldown.

Having said that, an issue that Blizzard has not really addressed is our mana problems. If we're tanking in a raid it's fine, but once again, if paladins start to outgear something, we are mana screwed.

So, and while I'm afraid this does nothing to help with the tree bloat, what if Improved Holy Shield read like this instead: (Hint hint, all you beta paladins feedback it please :))

When Holy Shield is active, any blocked attack returns 1/2% of your Mana.

And, with a change like that, rolling the current version of Improved Holy Shield into the base ability would be fair I think. (10 Charges, 20% more damage compared to now)

On the high end, it's a small change - raid bosses are already to the point where we won't be having mana problems, and this isn't going to change that. What this really addresses is when you have good gear and you're tanking something just a little beneath you.

Warriors and druids have rage, at the very least they gain it through white damage, and still gain it directly from being hit. Meanwhile, our mana just keeps on dropping unless we're taking loads of damage.

As for tree bloat, well...they really need to merge a couple of things at the high end, in addition to Redoubt and Shield Spec. That's a different topic that nobody at Blizzard will read though.
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Postby Kayoto » Wed Jul 23, 2008 8:36 am

I like it. Get someone who's taking part in the WotLK beta to suggest it.
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Postby Marwan » Wed Jul 23, 2008 8:38 am

So with Imp Holy Shield you'd have 10 charges right?

With 2/2 in Imp HS that would give you 2% mana per block while it's up ..

My Mana Pool is around the 5k mark so per block I'd be getting back 100 mana and at the most if I use every one of my HS charges(which almost never happens) I'd gain 1,000 mana or 1/5 of my total Mana pool.

I'm not sure how helpful this would be, it really would depend on our gear level. If we're going to be stacking +block rating like crazy I'd see it as being decent.

I'm not sure how it compares to the warrior version of getting rage when they dodge.

It's definitely a step in the right direction though, having to swap gear or take it off for a Reg 5 man or even a heroic is beyond annoying.
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Postby shifttusk » Wed Jul 23, 2008 8:45 am

One thing to look at is the judgement change, Unless I missunderstood the video that was posted here you can judge wisdom for both holy dmg and a portion of you mana back based upon AP and SD. That being said we'll have a decent chunk of mana regen in tanking gear even if we have an avoidance string. The other thing to think is while tanking a raid boss with unlimited mana sure SoR or SoB or whatever works out best is a good threat idea but in a limited mana intake solution like a 5 man you overgear in WOTLK with our not additional abilities you can probably seal wisdom full time and still maintain good threat while boosting your mana regen. Realisticaly avengers judge slam on a five man burn first target should be anough for dps to start working, a holycleave would be enough for the kill possibly. This would leave you pleanty of time to regen some mana autoattacking much like a warrior does.
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Postby PsiVen » Wed Jul 23, 2008 9:11 am

They took away the dependence on dodge/parry in the consecrate mana reduction talent that gave us some measure of conservation in outgeared content. Maybe we'll see this sort of change to compensate.
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Postby Worldie » Wed Jul 23, 2008 9:36 am

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hrm

Postby Mavrix » Wed Jul 23, 2008 12:08 pm

The HS thought seems interesting and I certainly wouldn't mind it.
However, it seems to me they should just up our SA return % or restore mana return from overhealing on prot (since it would essentially most effect overgeared content, that wouldn't be too terribly OP). Just some more thoughts along these lines. What I'm reading in beta notes is pallies having threat and mana issues (but it may be the changes of the gearing paradigms and people not knowing how to best adjust that are causing the threat issues).
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Re: hrm

Postby Korangar » Wed Jul 23, 2008 1:15 pm

Mavrix wrote:However, it seems to me they should just up our SA return % or restore mana return from overhealing on prot (since it would essentially most effect overgeared content, that wouldn't be too terribly OP).

What I'm reading in beta notes is pallies having threat and mana issues (but it may be the changes of the gearing paradigms and people not knowing how to best adjust that are causing the threat issues).


While I agree that upping the SA return % would help, that throws ret a bit out of balance potentially, but it also ties us to a simple, and INCREDIBLY annoying fact: our rage is not under our own control, it's the healer's.

If they want to unify tank mechanics, then all tanks need to have some influence over the bar that controls how they can tank, be it Rage, Runic Power, or Mana. At present, we're the only one of the 4 tank classes with 0 control over that bar except for how quickly we drain it.

Also, I would suggest that the threat issues that we're seeing are not stemming mainly from gear, but the fact that we're utterly and completely mana-starved. After thinking about it further, I'd even suggest that the new Holy Shield be 2/4% or even 3/6%, and the charges on it could be kept at 6. Reactive stuff isn't the best design in general, but since tanks DO get hit, and we do have some control over how often we block, I think it's a fair compromise. It's a reasonable way to approximate rage without going too far.
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Re: hrm

Postby Dorvan » Wed Jul 23, 2008 1:20 pm

Korangar wrote:While I agree that upping the SA return % would help, that throws ret a bit out of balance potentially, but it also ties us to a simple, and INCREDIBLY annoying fact: our rage is not under our own control, it's the healer's.

If they want to unify tank mechanics, then all tanks need to have some influence over the bar that controls how they can tank, be it Rage, Runic Power, or Mana. At present, we're the only one of the 4 tank classes with 0 control over that bar except for how quickly we drain it.


How is rage under a Warrior's control any more than it is a Pallies? They're dependent on incoming damage for their rage generation, the only difference is that they gain is on hit whereas we gain it on heal. On the whole, I think our mana system works pretty well, it's certainly convenient to start combat at full mana rather than with an empty rage bar. The main thing that could use improvement is downtime reduction in 5 mans.
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Re: hrm

Postby Korangar » Wed Jul 23, 2008 1:30 pm

Dorvan wrote:How is rage under a Warrior's control any more than it is a Pallies? They're dependent on incoming damage for their rage generation, the only difference is that they gain is on hit whereas we gain it on heal. On the whole, I think our mana system works pretty well, it's certainly convenient to start combat at full mana rather than with an empty rage bar. The main thing that could use improvement is downtime reduction in 5 mans.


Well one thing is that they now get rage on a dodge or parry. (Which is protection only, hence why I'm suggesting a paladin mechanic that is also protection only.) The other thing is that their white hits generate rage. It's not much, but it does help. We have Judgement of Wisdom, yes - though from everything I'm hearing from beta that's not nearly enough. Also in terms of threat generated per damage taken, I would suggest that warriors and druids have the better end of the deal.
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Postby Dorvan » Wed Jul 23, 2008 1:38 pm

Well, without any idea of what kinda of incoming damage we'll see at 80 and how our (and Warrior/Druid) abilities scale, your "feelings" about relative threat gained per damage taken don't count for much. If you have data to support your conclusion, whether through combat logs or theorycraft, feel free to report it.

It's very likely that our mana income/expenditures aren't going to be tuned quite right on the very early builds of Beta....tweaking those parameters are exactly the sort of thing a Beta test is for. However, it's a big leap from "mana income/expense is tuned quite right" to "the mana model for Tankadins is fundamentally flawed, we need to be more like Warriors".
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Postby Splug » Wed Jul 23, 2008 1:58 pm

In the current beta build, stalwart protector will return 2 rage on parries or dodges. Assuming autoattacks are generating enough rage to run a basic rotation (if you're overgearing content, you should have a respectable level of hit), the major contribution is going to be generating additional heroic strikes or cleaves. Losing the ~10 rage from converting an autoattack on top of the cost of HS/cleave is going to make them cost 20-25ish rage respectively, which ammounts to 10-13 parried/dodged attacks for one additional heroic strike/cleave.

If rage is so strained that just running GCD abilities is restricted, it would be nice to ensure there's always enough rage for revenge, but it still takes 8.5 parries to accumulate one shield slam, which would be the second highest-priority attack in a restricted-rage scenario.

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Postby PsiVen » Wed Jul 23, 2008 3:59 pm

Gotta say the warrior talent doesn't impress me either. I think something more needs to be done or progression 10-mans will get very annoying. ZA did many things right but making me spam drink even when chain pulling was NOT a highlight.

Outside of 10-mans, it's a non-issue for paladins who can simply pull more and still hold aggro.
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Postby Elennira » Wed Jul 23, 2008 4:17 pm

isnt there a ret takent that refunds the mana cost of the seal when you judge it?

perhaps something like that in the prot tree?
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Postby Soltyr » Wed Jul 23, 2008 4:37 pm

Elennira wrote:isnt there a ret takent that refunds the mana cost of the seal when you judge it?


Changed in something better
http://wotlk.wowhead.com/?spell=31878

imho Guarded by the Light was our perfect candidate in mechanism and tier position.
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