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Divine Strength: Any math?

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Postby Dorvan » Wed Jul 23, 2008 10:00 am

It's a good start, but there's still a fair bit missing, notably misses, resists, crits, and armor reduction. Also 800 spellpower seems too high once we've made the transition away from spellpower gear at 80. During leveling while we're still wearing our TBC tanking gear is sounds accurate though (or even somewhat underestimated).
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Postby Airanna » Wed Jul 23, 2008 10:18 am

800 doesn't sound completely unreasonable...that's 2400 stam. I push 1700 now fully buffed, if I replace all my epic gems with just the new rares i'd be looking at like 120 * 1.166 more stam and a second stam trinket would become a threat trinket so that's another 51 * 1.166. Count in upgrading enchants I'd pull another 20 * 1.166 stam. So just keeping my current gear and upgrading the enchants/gems/leg armor kit I'd go up to 1923, then 130 from the next rank of Fort is 2053 and 38 from the new rank of mark is 2081. That's with no Imp in the group and not replacing any of my current gear by 80. I think 2400 is a very reasonable entry raiding amount at 80.
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Postby Tahl » Wed Jul 23, 2008 10:23 am

Don't forget buffs too, like the improved version of Wizard Oil and whatever Spell Power flasks there are, plus perhaps a 55(?) spell damage enchant, spell damage food, etc.. if we got, say 230 spell damage from buffs that'd leave 570 to get from stam, whch is only 1900 stamina. 800 seems very obtainable.
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Postby Dorvan » Wed Jul 23, 2008 10:27 am

Unfortunately your armory doesn't show your tanking gear atm (or I'm looking at the wrong one), but as far as I can tell 1700 buffed stam pretty much means you're in absolute top-notch gear atm, which means that's probably about where people will be sitting at 80 (perhaps up to around 2k stam with the buffs you mentioned). I don't doubt that at a later stage 2400 stam would be reachable, but I guess I'm more interested in 80 dungeon/Naxx level theorycrafting atm. Also, 2400 stam would only be 720 spellpower, not 800. All in all, I think that spellpower estimate is just a little overshot, that's all.
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Postby Dorvan » Wed Jul 23, 2008 10:28 am

Tahl wrote:Don't forget buffs too, like the improved version of Wizard Oil and whatever Spell Power flasks there are, plus perhaps a 55(?) spell damage enchant, spell damage food, etc.. if we got, say 230 spell damage from buffs that'd leave 570 to get from stam, whch is only 1900 stamina. 800 seems very obtainable.


That presumes we'd be going for +dam buffs wherever we can find them. Personally I doubt we'll be getting +dam from anything but stamina unless we're AoE tanking.....but I guess we'll see.
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Postby Tahl » Wed Jul 23, 2008 10:42 am

Less spell damage would tip the scales even farther towards Divine Strength over Seals of the Pure. :)
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Postby Dorvan » Wed Jul 23, 2008 10:53 am

Tahl wrote:Less spell damage would tip the scales even farther towards Divine Strength over Seals of the Pure. :)


Yes, I know that. On the other hand, factoring in miss and possibly armor reduction could tip the scales away from Divine Strength. I'm not interested is picking a side and proving it's "right", I just want through theorycrafting that produces accurate results, whatever they may be.
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Postby Airanna » Wed Jul 23, 2008 10:55 am

I'm not top-notch, mostly t6 grade gear, haven't got anything from sunwell yet and still have plenty of upgrades to get in t6 content. You do get a good 200 stam from raid buffs, and those same raid buffs are more than doubling at 80. Maybe general drops will be homogenized, but I'm still thinking that Badge and Tier gear will be more specialized.
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Postby Tahl » Wed Jul 23, 2008 11:08 am

Dorvan wrote:factoring in miss and possibly armor reduction could tip the scales away from Divine Strength.


Agreed -- we need to factor in the boss' armor reduction (minus armor debuffs applied by the raid), base spell miss rate (17%?) and miss/parry/dodge/block rates, plus our own expected hit rating (affecting melee and spells), expertise, spell and melee crits (150% magic and 200% physical) to get the most accurate numbers.

Oh, and here's another complication -- I mentioned spell damage buffs, but forgot strength buffs. Any additional strength added to the above (from totem, scrolls, etc.) will directly affect Divine Strength and almost all abilities -- including seals (which scale with attack power), meaning Seals of the Pure benefits to a smaller degree from strength too. Straight attack power buffs (Blessing of Might) would not be benefited by Divine Strength but would still increase seals through the AP coefficient, therefore being increased by Seals of the Pure only.

Sheesh, there are a lot of small details to consider, and a lot of guesswork. We may have to wait until we have better info to get the more accurate theorycrafting done.
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Postby Coristad » Wed Jul 23, 2008 11:37 am

We need to send the guy who makes Rawr lots of cookies and get him to add tankadins.
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Postby jere » Wed Jul 23, 2008 11:40 am

Dorvan wrote:
Tahl wrote:Less spell damage would tip the scales even farther towards Divine Strength over Seals of the Pure. :)


Yes, I know that. On the other hand, factoring in miss and possibly armor reduction could tip the scales away from Divine Strength. I'm not interested is picking a side and proving it's "right", I just want through theorycrafting that produces accurate results, whatever they may be.


Given that things like that all depend on gear choices, that will probably be difficult to accomplish. The best you can do is figure out an "average" set of stats and use those, but even that is not accurate. It is however an upgrade from napkin math to white board math, so it is an improvement.
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Postby Myotis » Wed Jul 23, 2008 1:39 pm

Dorvan wrote:Personally I doubt we'll be getting +dam from anything but stamina unless we're AoE tanking.....but I guess we'll see.

How I'd like things to be. Though in that case, wouldn't Seal of Blood now be "the" tanking seal?( Also happens to benefit from Divine Strength ) Which would mean Seals of the pure is not for us.
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Postby Dorvan » Wed Jul 23, 2008 1:41 pm

Myotis wrote:What I'd like to see happen too. Though in that case, wouldn't Seal of Blood now be "the" tanking seal? Which would mean Seals of the pure is not for us.


All our damage seals scale with AP as well as spell damage now. It seems almost certain that we'll want to be running SoV, the only question is whether it'll be better to weave in SoB or SoR.
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Postby Fridmarr » Wed Jul 23, 2008 2:56 pm

Dorvan wrote:
Myotis wrote:What I'd like to see happen too. Though in that case, wouldn't Seal of Blood now be "the" tanking seal? Which would mean Seals of the pure is not for us.


All our damage seals scale with AP as well as spell damage now. It seems almost certain that we'll want to be running SoV, the only question is whether it'll be better to weave in SoB or SoR.


Jere did some math on this on page 7 of this thread http://www.failsafedesign.com/maintanka ... p?p=184726

I wouldn't count out SoR just yet as the primary threat seal.
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Postby Tybalt » Wed Jul 23, 2008 3:04 pm

Dorvan wrote:
Myotis wrote:What I'd like to see happen too. Though in that case, wouldn't Seal of Blood now be "the" tanking seal? Which would mean Seals of the pure is not for us.


All our damage seals scale with AP as well as spell damage now. It seems almost certain that we'll want to be running SoV, the only question is whether it'll be better to weave in SoB or SoR.


Currently, SoV does scale with AP. However, if you run AP without any SP, there's virtually no difference between a single Holy Vengeance, and a full stack of 5.
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