Guarded by the Light change

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Postby Chevalier » Wed Jul 23, 2008 6:16 am

I think a big reason for this talent is so that holy paladins can't be subbed in as easily with their const. due to the high mana cost.

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Postby Worldie » Wed Jul 23, 2008 6:17 am

You actually got a interesting point there, holy paladins would not be able to aoetank if they are OOM in 3 casts.
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Postby Soltyr » Wed Jul 23, 2008 6:30 am

Worldie wrote:You actually got a interesting point there, holy paladins would not be able to aoetank if they are OOM in 3 casts.


Holy has available from its own tree a 10% reduction on cons, 15% more int and DI. So it's not going to be "so far" from prot if this was the plan.
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Postby Fridmarr » Wed Jul 23, 2008 9:35 am

Vanifae wrote:
QuantumDelta wrote:The old version is significantly better in better gear than most people are running around in, which may be why they changed it.

The "old Version" is still the Live version.


Correct, none of the more recent changes are available on the test server yet. Also, I think unless you are AoE tanking this new version would be better, since the old only has a 20% chance to proc.

Since it's just a mana reduction, maybe they could combine it with Shield of the Templar.
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Postby Splug » Wed Jul 23, 2008 10:31 am

The spells had to increase in cost to force lv 70 gear into obsolescence for holy paladins. The increase in damage income should compensate for the higher base costs, due to spiritual attunement. If the net result is that you have to spend two tallent points to get the same mana output rate, but have a significantly increased mana income rate, you've gained a lot of ground in the long run. The tallent is probably there to compensate for the change in itemization (IE: most likely using gear with no int) moreso than anything else. Thus, at lv 80 with the tallent relative to lv 70, your "maximum mana dump during avoidance streaks" should remain roughly constant, but your overal economy should be significantly better.

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Postby Soltyr » Wed Jul 23, 2008 10:35 am

Redundant talents...

Stamina -> Sacred Shield and Expertise
Holy Shield dmg -> ImpHS and Shield of the Templar
Avenger's Shield mana cost -> Shield of the Templar and Guarded by the Light

Though less reliant, I like how Guarded by the Light is working, proc off from parry and dodge. I feel I'm using dodge/parry for more than just avoidance and it does scale with my tanking gear. Another passive mana reduction makes tree bloated in a silly and boring way.
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Postby Fridmarr » Wed Jul 23, 2008 11:01 am

Splug wrote:The spells had to increase in cost to force lv 70 gear into obsolescence for holy paladins. The increase in damage income should compensate for the higher base costs, due to spiritual attunement. If the net result is that you have to spend two tallent points to get the same mana output rate, but have a significantly increased mana income rate, you've gained a lot of ground in the long run. The tallent is probably there to compensate for the change in itemization (IE: most likely using gear with no int) moreso than anything else. Thus, at lv 80 with the tallent relative to lv 70, your "maximum mana dump during avoidance streaks" should remain roughly constant, but your overal economy should be significantly better.

-Splug


I'm not sure the increased damage intake will cover it to be honest. We have a few more abilities we'll have to spam to stay up on threat, especially if we need to work AS into the rotation. A pull using AS+HS+Seal+Judge+ShoR+HoR+Cons starts us off in a bit of a hole.

From my playing around so far in beta, mana is a precious thing, but I don't have a sense for the SA intake or the effects of JoW/BoW/AB in a raid environment either.
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Postby guillex » Wed Jul 23, 2008 11:02 am

Soltyr wrote:Redundant talents...

Stamina -> Sacred Shield and Expertise
Holy Shield dmg -> ImpHS and Shield of the Templar
Avenger's Shield mana cost -> Shield of the Templar and Guarded by the Light

Though less reliant, I like how Guarded by the Light is working, proc off from parry and dodge. I feel I'm using dodge/parry for more than just avoidance and it does scale with my tanking gear. Another passive mana reduction makes tree bloated in a silly and boring way.


It actually doesn't work off parry/dodge anymore... It's a passive 30% reduction, instead of a procced 20% chance for a 50% reduction.
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Postby Fridmarr » Wed Jul 23, 2008 11:04 am

Soltyr wrote:Redundant talents...

Stamina -> Sacred Shield and Expertise
Holy Shield dmg -> ImpHS and Shield of the Templar
Avenger's Shield mana cost -> Shield of the Templar and Guarded by the Light

Though less reliant, I like how Guarded by the Light is working, proc off from parry and dodge. I feel I'm using dodge/parry for more than just avoidance and it does scale with my tanking gear. Another passive mana reduction makes tree bloated in a silly and boring way.


Yeah, it makes our talents look kind of odd to keep having different talents do the same thing. It kind of implies that base values aren't what they should be, though I can understand that a bit because of holy/ret (though I still say we need more base health for all 3 of our specs). Anyhow, given our bloat, hopefully they can figure out a way to combine some of that stuff.
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Postby Fridmarr » Wed Jul 23, 2008 11:05 am

Guillex wrote:
Soltyr wrote:Redundant talents...

Stamina -> Sacred Shield and Expertise
Holy Shield dmg -> ImpHS and Shield of the Templar
Avenger's Shield mana cost -> Shield of the Templar and Guarded by the Light

Though less reliant, I like how Guarded by the Light is working, proc off from parry and dodge. I feel I'm using dodge/parry for more than just avoidance and it does scale with my tanking gear. Another passive mana reduction makes tree bloated in a silly and boring way.


It actually doesn't work off parry/dodge anymore... It's a passive 30% reduction, instead of a procced 20% chance for a 50% reduction.


It hasn't been changed yet on the test server, so he's simply saying he likes the "old" (which is still current) way better.
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Postby Soltyr » Wed Jul 23, 2008 11:21 am

Fridmarr wrote:
Guillex wrote:
Soltyr wrote:Redundant talents...

Stamina -> Sacred Shield and Expertise
Holy Shield dmg -> ImpHS and Shield of the Templar
Avenger's Shield mana cost -> Shield of the Templar and Guarded by the Light

Though less reliant, I like how Guarded by the Light is working, proc off from parry and dodge. I feel I'm using dodge/parry for more than just avoidance and it does scale with my tanking gear. Another passive mana reduction makes tree bloated in a silly and boring way.


It actually doesn't work off parry/dodge anymore... It's a passive 30% reduction, instead of a procced 20% chance for a 50% reduction.


It hasn't been changed yet on the test server, so he's simply saying he likes the "old" (which is still current) way better.


Exactly. I mean, finally something doesn't start with a simple "Damaging attacks against you have 10% chance of...", but rather something based on my tanking gear. Ok it's another mana reduction talent, nothing so exciting, but at least...
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Postby Splug » Wed Jul 23, 2008 11:39 am

Fridmarr wrote:
Splug wrote:The spells had to increase in cost to force lv 70 gear into obsolescence for holy paladins. The increase in damage income should compensate for the higher base costs, due to spiritual attunement. If the net result is that you have to spend two tallent points to get the same mana output rate, but have a significantly increased mana income rate, you've gained a lot of ground in the long run. The tallent is probably there to compensate for the change in itemization (IE: most likely using gear with no int) moreso than anything else. Thus, at lv 80 with the tallent relative to lv 70, your "maximum mana dump during avoidance streaks" should remain roughly constant, but your overal economy should be significantly better.

-Splug


I'm not sure the increased damage intake will cover it to be honest. We have a few more abilities we'll have to spam to stay up on threat, especially if we need to work AS into the rotation. A pull using AS+HS+Seal+Judge+ShoR+HoR+Cons starts us off in a bit of a hole.

From my playing around so far in beta, mana is a precious thing, but I don't have a sense for the SA intake or the effects of JoW/BoW/AB in a raid environment either.
The other major factor is that we're still guessing at how much damage will be flying around at lv 80, both in 5-man content and in raids, which is ultimately what we're talking about if top-rank spells are being considered. Do we even know what base manapool sizes will be at 80, assuming even 0 int?

Also, it sounds like paladins may actually have enough attacks that it becomes mandatory to prioritize what they want to do rather than simply firing everything, such as skipping the single-target abilities for AE'ing or consecration for single-target tanking. Where warriors are limited primarily by the GCD on what their actions are, the paladin's limitation being mana would be fairly logical and retain some of the more "laid back" atmosphere of tanking that players have attributed to the "paladin class flavor."

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Postby AutomaticZen » Wed Jul 23, 2008 11:43 am

Splug wrote:The spells had to increase in cost to force lv 70 gear into obsolescence for holy paladins. The increase in damage income should compensate for the higher base costs, due to spiritual attunement. If the net result is that you have to spend two tallent points to get the same mana output rate, but have a significantly increased mana income rate, you've gained a lot of ground in the long run. The tallent is probably there to compensate for the change in itemization (IE: most likely using gear with no int) moreso than anything else. Thus, at lv 80 with the tallent relative to lv 70, your "maximum mana dump during avoidance streaks" should remain roughly constant, but your overal economy should be significantly better.

-Splug


SA would probably cover you in raids, but not so much in 5-Mans, unless they change it so you can get mana on overheals again. Or give us a talent that buffs SA accordingly.

I'm still preferring getting mana for avoiding hits.
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Postby PsiVen » Wed Jul 23, 2008 11:43 am

They specifically said that they wanted paladins to tank more actively, so I'm hopeful for none of that "laid back atmosphere" junk being planned. Mana being a serious limitation would suck horridly if it meant anything more than ditching full Consecrate uptime.
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Postby Fridmarr » Wed Jul 23, 2008 12:40 pm

Splug wrote:
Fridmarr wrote:
Splug wrote:The spells had to increase in cost to force lv 70 gear into obsolescence for holy paladins. The increase in damage income should compensate for the higher base costs, due to spiritual attunement. If the net result is that you have to spend two tallent points to get the same mana output rate, but have a significantly increased mana income rate, you've gained a lot of ground in the long run. The tallent is probably there to compensate for the change in itemization (IE: most likely using gear with no int) moreso than anything else. Thus, at lv 80 with the tallent relative to lv 70, your "maximum mana dump during avoidance streaks" should remain roughly constant, but your overal economy should be significantly better.

-Splug


I'm not sure the increased damage intake will cover it to be honest. We have a few more abilities we'll have to spam to stay up on threat, especially if we need to work AS into the rotation. A pull using AS+HS+Seal+Judge+ShoR+HoR+Cons starts us off in a bit of a hole.

From my playing around so far in beta, mana is a precious thing, but I don't have a sense for the SA intake or the effects of JoW/BoW/AB in a raid environment either.
The other major factor is that we're still guessing at how much damage will be flying around at lv 80, both in 5-man content and in raids, which is ultimately what we're talking about if top-rank spells are being considered. Do we even know what base manapool sizes will be at 80, assuming even 0 int?

Also, it sounds like paladins may actually have enough attacks that it becomes mandatory to prioritize what they want to do rather than simply firing everything, such as skipping the single-target abilities for AE'ing or consecration for single-target tanking. Where warriors are limited primarily by the GCD on what their actions are, the paladin's limitation being mana would be fairly logical and retain some of the more "laid back" atmosphere of tanking that players have attributed to the "paladin class flavor."

-Splug


Well I doubt we'll have much more mana at 80 without int on gear than we did at 70 with it. Even factoring in more powerful buffs. However, I think our core skills are going to be low in cost, assuming that they are Judgement, Holy Shield, ShoR, and HoR. For instance on my level 70 dwarf, 6% of base mana seems to be about 177 mana. That's pretty cheap, and I don't think it'll be much more by level 80, maybe like 250 mana or so. So each rotation with those skills and we are spending about 20% of our mana pool, which isn't too bad really.

Consecrate and AS are our big mana sinks, if we aren't required to keep them up full time against a single target to hold aggro, then it's fine. In AoE situations, you'll still have an ability to tab->Judge, tab->ShoR, tab->HoR to spread threat around on a more active basis, along with downranked consecrates and holy shield. My gut is telling me it should work, and even be a bit more fun than just lol consecrate spam.
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