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WotLK Theorycrafting: MT specs and more!

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WotLK Theorycrafting: MT specs and more!

Postby NSFW » Tue Jul 22, 2008 4:59 am

Hi folks, after reading about the new talents, I just can't help myself. I have to start the Theorycrafting!

Here is what I predict my next "MT" spec to be followed by my reasons why:

http://www.worldofwarcraft.com/info/cla ... 0000000000

<Prot>

Tier 1: Divine Strength & Anticipation

Divine Strength is probably the first one everyone is going to roll their eyes at, it's Theorycraft though! So we get to speculate and guess. My prediction is while STR won't play a MAJOR role in our stats, it won't be terrible either. Why? 4 things mostly.

1) Rumour has it that STR will contribute to block value in a much more friendly way. This makes sense, given that with DK's who won't be blocking, have a talent that converts STR into PARRY, the second form of mitigation (outside dodge) that they CAN do. It is also said that Blizz wants DK's to actually contribute decent damage WHILE tanking. STR increases this damage. Now how does this relate to Paladins? I beleive we will start seeing tank pieces with strength, given Blizzards whole direction of homogenizing gear. Pure speculation, but I believe with the next two points, it shouldn't be dismissed.

2) Shield of Righteousness, which of course scales with Block Value, which is increased by STR.

3) A move toward Paladin's equipping high DPS "Tank" weapons, in lieu of "Caster" weapons v.s. single targets. This means white damage won't be a complete non-factor in terms of threat production, especially in conjunction with Hammer of Righteousness.

4) Skipping ahead, if you notice in Tier 2 & 3, I've skipped Redoubt and Shield Spec completely. Blasphemy you say? Well to me, in terms of "MT'ing" these two talents are expensive, and offer very little value. Redoubt is almost redundant v.s. a single target, given that we have Holy Shields cooldown reduced to 8 seconds. Shield Spec is definitely WORTH it's points, but cost a whopping 8 to get it, because we have to take the aforementioned Redoubt. In terms of "single" target tanking, this is why I feel Divine Strength is more worthy. It's providing SOME of the mitigation lost by not taking Shield Spec (and if you are taking Shield Spec, you'd be hard pressed to take Divine Strength), as well as contributing threat. In boss fights, straight "block value" has always taken second fiddle to threat production. Please argue if you disagree, though I do understand that my reasoning is entirely based on speculation.

Tier 2: Standard and I already talked about why I skipped Redoubt.

Tier 3: Again, pretty standard, and already talked about Shield Spec.

Tier 4: Imp. Dev. Aura, no Divine Guardian.

Why? I don't beleive Holy Paladin's are going to climb Prot anymore. They have little reason to, outside of getting Divine Guardian themselves, or being the "second" Holy Paladin pigeonholed into getting BoK and running Imp. Dev. Aura over Imp. Conc. Aura something I also don't think will happen either. I think we, the Prot Paladin's will now be expected to bring those to the table. Holy Paladins IMO gain more benefit from speccing 56/0/15 or 48/0/23. Given that they can now "Judge" and seemed to be encouraged to do so, talents like Benediction, Imp Judgment (judging seal of wisdom for mana), conviction (5% spell crit? yes plz) and even heart of the crusader (meaning in smaller groups, with no other paladins, they are giving their entire party +3% crit) are way more valuable then the dead talents they have to take in prot, just to capture 1 descent talent (Divine Guardian) and a few "descent" fillers to suit the raid (BoK, Imp Dev. Aura),.

I skipped Divine Guardian, because I believe it better suited if your role in your raid is the main OT/Secondary tank. I can see it used as a MT if you always have a "2nd" tank in place to capture the mob, in which case it makes it a descent, if tad complicated "OHSHIT" button, but to me it's not worth the points.

Tier 5 & Above is all pretty standard to me. Though I chose NOT to take Guarded by the Light. Again, as a MT, If I'm tanking the right place, mana shouldn't be my limiting factor. We've also been given a lot of extra tools to dish out threat v.s. single targets, I don't even think we need to fit cons into our rotation anymore.

Even AOE tanking, by all accounts you shouldn't be having mana issues, right? Could be wrong, but to me, my points seem better placed elsewhere. Awesome for us overgeared Pallies running all our upcomers through lower instances though.

<Holy>

I have the 5 points to spare, so why wouldn't I take Seal of the Pure. Direct, single target DPS increase? Yes plz. I hope one day, especially now that vengeance has a horde equivalent, SoV will be useful, and this will only make it better.

<Ret>

Standard, but only 1 point in Imp. Judgement. You could almost go no points now, but I had the point, and it fit into what I see as my new rotation. This works now, because of the change in Holy Shield cooldown (8 seconds instead of 10).

Now I get that Judgeing doesn't take a GCD, so I also get that a 8 second Judge works in tandem with Holy Shield. E.g. make a macro that casts Judgement, followed by Holy Shield. So I suppose you can take 1 point out of Seal of the Pure and max Imp. Judgment. I don't really want to do the math and figure out if 3% SoR and SoRJ damage adds or doesn't add up to 1 second of Judgment times.

Either way with a 9 second Judgment, your rotation would be something like this:

Shield of Righteousness -> Hammer of Righteousness -> Holy Shield -> Judgement.

They all basically line up this way pretty nicely, giving you plenty of room to keep Holy Shield up, with no pressure to keep Hammer of Righteousness in the rotation if not needed.

A 8 second Judgment would be:

Shield of Righteousness -> Hammer of Righteousness -> Judgment/Holy Shield.

Factoring in latency and human reaction though, might fuddle that anyway, but it's not a "major" consequence, outside of possibly riding that "Holy Shield might be knocked off" line a little closer, but without crushing blows, how important that is might also be trivial.

So I could probably go either way, 8 or 9 second Judgement both seem alright, and I guess only time will tell.

Overall, I'm very impressed with the Talents so far, in all trees (though I hear some people groaning about Holy, I'll have to take a closer look at it).

I like the added choice we have in Prot talents. You can swap some talents around if you're primarily a MT, or primarily the AoE tank, or primarily the OT.

I especially think our role as a OT is significantly better. We provide a sweet OhShit! Button to the MT. We could feasibly use Blood/Martyr as our main "OT seal", using the health loss as a mana gain for us, keeping our steam going in those "I'm not getting wailed on situations". This works now, because we'll also be using "real" weapons, instead of sharp glow sticks. Since we don't use SoCrusader at all anymore, it means SoWisdom and/or Light is almost guaranteed to be on (both working great with Seal of Martyr/Blood, in a OT position), again overall just helping us really well.

AOE tanking hasn't really changed, given that we know get a almost guaranteed 50% discount on Cons, if we choose to go that way.

I'm a happy Pally.
Last edited by NSFW on Tue Jul 22, 2008 5:38 am, edited 2 times in total.
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Postby Snake-Aes » Tue Jul 22, 2008 5:10 am

You write that you may favor divine strength because of block value, but ignore shield spec? Shield Spec's bv also affects HSS.

Also remember that the trend seems to be lower avoidance, higher EH tanks.
We'll also be the "block tanks" , which implies a much bv-centric itemization. Warriors won't rely on block skills other than praying to block a lot instead of a little.

I agree with you that prot pallies are the only ones likely to have Kings now, out of PvP specs. Same goes for imp devo and it's new mechanic(raid-wide) favors melee greatly.
Guarded by the Light is indeed a leveling/overgearing talent. We have yet to see how necessary it may or may not be. I'm not counting on using it for tanking, specially since except for consecration, the relevant aoe abilities got a mana boost from Shield of Templar.

I couldn't fit 1/2 imp judgment nor PoJ in my build =( It's really just unlikely and I'm still wary of the new gcds too.
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Postby Melathys » Tue Jul 22, 2008 5:10 am

Why spec divine strength for possibly using high dps tank weapons, then not take the talent that allows us to use such a weapon?



*edit.

threat management seems to be even more important than before (also blessing of salvation being changed/removed).

http://www.worldofwarcraft.com/info/cla ... 0000000000

That is likely the spec I'll be using. The best way I see to take 10 points and go after deflection, would be to take from Reckoning and Ardent Defender...but I'd honestly rather have ardent defender than deflection, and that leave me with an extra 5 points to toss somewhere since I can't reach deflection with 5 points, so I put them into Reckoning. Or use 4 points for Guarded by the Light and Divine Guardian with 1 point to toss somewhere....all in all, I only really see 5 points to play with in various ways.

I'm also getting tempted to try to go after imp Lay on Hands.
Last edited by Melathys on Tue Jul 22, 2008 5:23 am, edited 1 time in total.
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Postby Garwin » Tue Jul 22, 2008 5:15 am

I'd probably take the point out of improved judgements and put it into hammer of the rightious,

I just think I like the idea of having another button available for snap agro.

improved judgements might be good but if your going with a non spellpower weapon and high damage , cycling that rather than shaving a second of judgements might be better for single target threat
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Postby Worldie » Tue Jul 22, 2008 5:15 am

Moved to more appropriate section.
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Postby NSFW » Tue Jul 22, 2008 5:34 am

Snake-Aes wrote:You write that you may favor divine strength because of block value, but ignore shield spec? Shield Spec's bv also affects HSS.


Hmm, well that changes things... for some reason I saw Shield of Righteousness pulling its value from your shield, not your modified block value on your character sheet, which wouldn't make sense since it wouldn't factor in STR either then. Dunno WHY I had my crazy moment that way.

Either way, DS does become a "Cheaper" Shield Spec, by all accounts, and ultimately it would come down to itemization and how much you value those extra three talent points "elsewhere". I'm hard pressed to find something I want to take out of, to get it =/

Also remember that the trend seems to be lower avoidance, higher EH tanks.
We'll also be the "block tanks" , which implies a much bv-centric itemization. Warriors won't rely on block skills other than praying to block a lot instead of a little.


Also something I wasn't aware of, though I still don't see Redoubt being all that good, and we come to the above argument of "is shield spec worth the 8 points"? While we are the "block tanks", that more has to do with blocking frequently, and less to do with how much we block for. I could be wrong again, but that's the whole point of this, discussion =).

Why spec divine strength for possibly using high dps tank weapons, then not take the talent that allows us to use such a weapon?


I'd probably take the point out of improved judgements and put it into hammer of the rightious,

I just think I like the idea of having another button available for snap agro.

improved judgements might be good but if your going with a non spellpower weapon and high damage , cycling that rather than shaving a second of judgements might be better for single target threat


I simply forgot to put the point in there, and I did indeed take Hammer of Righteousness in my original talent build.

@Melathys: I like the idea of your Talent build as well. I suppose I'm stuck in the "mitigation" is king, and therefore view Parry as a must have, so couldn't consider it. If mitigation really is being toned down, I definitely see room for Reckoning somewhere. Would be great to have our farm spec and MT spec rolled into one.

Moved to more appropriate section.


Thanks =)

EDIT:

If Divine Strength really does end up smelling, then I'd probably go this way:

http://www.worldofwarcraft.com/info/cla ... 0000000000

Hate losing Spell Warding, but if the DK's are as half cracked up as they are advertised to be vs "Caster" mobs, we might be able to get by without it. Alternatively, you can take out 2 points from Seal of the Pure or Parry if it really turns out significant.
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Postby Gustov » Tue Jul 22, 2008 6:11 am

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Postby jere » Tue Jul 22, 2008 6:14 am

I really wish you guys would use the wowhead links lol. My poor browser window has to scroll all the way to the right and then back left just to read some of the posts :)
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Postby Lore » Tue Jul 22, 2008 7:12 am

Worldie wrote:Moved to more appropriate section.


Er, what section was it in before?

Cuz this definitely belongs in the Talent Specs forum.
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Postby moduspwnens » Tue Jul 22, 2008 7:15 am

Lore wrote:
Worldie wrote:Moved to more appropriate section.


Er, what section was it in before?

Cuz this definitely belongs in the Talent Specs forum.


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Postby Worldie » Tue Jul 22, 2008 7:33 am

Lore wrote:
Worldie wrote:Moved to more appropriate section.


Er, what section was it in before?

Cuz this definitely belongs in the Talent Specs forum.

general, but since i see theorycrafting i think it would be better in Advanced.

However Lore is right, removed it ^^
Last edited by Worldie on Tue Jul 22, 2008 7:58 am, edited 1 time in total.
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halabar wrote:Noo.. you don't realize the problem. Worldie was to negative guild breaking energy like Bolvar is to the Scourge. If Worldie is removed, than someone must pick up that mantle, otherwise that negative guild breaking energy will run rampant, destroying all the servers.
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Postby Holyfuri » Tue Jul 22, 2008 7:57 am

Gustov wrote:here is mine without DS

http://www.worldofwarcraft.com/info/cla ... 0000000000


This is the spec I will probably be starting from, unless something significant changes... like the divine strength being more threat than seals of the pure at lvl 80.
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Postby Mortehl » Tue Jul 22, 2008 7:58 am

moduspwnens wrote:
Lore wrote:
Worldie wrote:Moved to more appropriate section.


Er, what section was it in before?

Cuz this definitely belongs in the Talent Specs forum.


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Postby Shoju » Tue Jul 22, 2008 8:16 am

So, if strength is still the poodoo when it comes to BV, this is my build.

http://www.worldofwarcraft.com/info/cla ... 00000#none

I know, I skipped Stoicism, but I think that it will be ok without it.


IF Strength is good, and allows us to block a lot more.

http://www.worldofwarcraft.com/info/cla ... 00000#none

I'm not saying that these are the best, but it's where I'm going to start.



I think that as a tank, taking the improved judgement is a bad idea. you will need the 10 sec CD to keep a good rotation going.
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Postby Fizzgig » Tue Jul 22, 2008 8:18 am

Shoju wrote:So, if strength is still the poodoo when it comes to BV, this is my build.

http://www.worldofwarcraft.com/info/cla ... 00000#none

I know, I skipped Stoicism, but I think that it will be ok without it.


IF Strength is good, and allows us to block a lot more.

http://www.worldofwarcraft.com/info/cla ... 00000#none

I'm not saying that these are the best, but it's where I'm going to start.



I think that as a tank, taking the improved judgement is a bad idea. you will need the 10 sec CD to keep a good rotation going.


I think that regardless of crushes or not in WotLK you're doing yourself (and the raid) a disservice by not getting 5% extra avoidance.

Also why would you be worried about not taking stoicism?

At the moment I'm thinking http://wotlk.wowhead.com/?talent=sVZV0tIxczMgqeoGoV0x but it really depends on some key testing to figure out if stuff is worth it/needed. I'd love to pick up spell warding and guarded by the light but I'm not sure if that 15% extra damage will really be needed threat wise in holy.
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