Wotlk... doubts with gears

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Postby Arjuna » Wed Jul 23, 2008 2:19 am

no +str on it either?

I thought that was gonna be on most or atleast lots of the tanking gear for the 3 plate-tanking classes...
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Postby AutomaticZen » Wed Jul 23, 2008 5:34 am

More fun with numbers!

Unleashing Seal data (ie, the damage caused by casting a Judgement):

uSoR: Damage = 45% * AP + 73% * SP

uSoL/W/J: Damage = 36% * AP + 58% * SP

Unleashing Seal of Light, Wisdom or Justice does 80% of the damage from unleashing Seal of Righteousness.

uSoV (0 debuffs) = 36% * AP + 58% * SP

uSoV (5 debuffs) = 54% * AP + 87% * SP

Unleashing Seal of Vengeance on a full stack does 20% more damage than unleashing Seal of Righteousness.


So while the constant damage of many Seals benefits from both AP/SP equally, the Judgements benefit more from SP it seems.

My numbers for Judgement of Command and Judgement of Blood are messed up. Also, my results are way higher than 30% weapon + 43% SP.

I'll start with Seals:

SoC: Damage = 70% * Weapon + 20% * SP

SoB: Damage = 35% * Weapon

JoC and JoB seem to be way higher than they should be. With weapon damage ~216 and no spell power, I'm doing normal JoCs and JoBs of 607 to 615. So unless JoC/B is intended to do 3x weapon damage, I think there's something wrong.

Alright, I have equations for JoB and JoC, but they're really weird. I would appreciate it if someone could see if their results are close.

JoB: Damage = 42% * AP + 66% * SP - 75

JoC: Damage = 40% * AP + 63% * SP - 50

I don't think they're quite right, I think base weapon damage plays a role somewhere, but I think it'll give a reasonable estimate of JoB/JoC damage. Let me know if you have a AP,SP combo that is nowhere near this.


There's more in there, including the thought that SoR seems to be scaling really well compared to SoC and SoB.
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Postby jere » Wed Jul 23, 2008 9:18 am

Ok, I ran some math based on the equations posted by those on EJ.

SoR vs. SoV:
SoR scales better than SoV
JoR scales worse than JoV

I first looked at the ideal case (every swing connected). In this case, SoR+JoR beat SoV+JoV for every combination of AP and SP.

I then realized that SoR would not be hitting all the time (I already forgot that lol), so I went back and threw in a (1-mdp) term for the "hit" percentage. mdp is miss/dodge/parry if you are curious.

Under roughly (1-mdp) = 52%, SoV+JoV wins

Between 52% and 80%, it depends on your AP and SP. Here SoR+JoR scales better with AP and SoV+JoV scales better with SP

After roughly (1-mdp) = 80%, SoR+JoR wins hands down

So with any significant amount of hit/expertise, it looks like SoR+JoR will win.

I forgot to account for crits and and resists, but they affect both seals/judgements similarly, so I expect those to dilute the lead that JoV had even further and cause SoR to take the lead earlier.

The reason this happens is because currently, SoV+JoV has a larger base value than SoR+JoR, which gave it the jump over SoR until a particular spell dmg value. On the beta, their equations are reporting no base values, just scaling values, so SoV+JoV no longer has that head start it currrently does on live.

***********LORE DON'T READ BELOW THIS LINE****************

No misses/dodges/parries:
Weighted SoR+JoR scaling = 8.55*AP + 15.57*SP
Weighted SoV+JoV scaling = 6.42*AP + 13.93*SP

NOTE: these are weighted (multiplied by a greatest common multiple, 90), but are completely proportional to the actual scaling values.

If you include misses/dodges/parries, here is the "cutoff" equation:

(4.5*AP + 8.0*SP)*(1-mdp) = 2.37*AP + 6.36*SP
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Postby Exalt » Wed Jul 23, 2008 12:39 pm

Amran20 wrote:Tankadins will be the MOST overpowered at the beginning of WotLK, because we'll be sitting there in gear thats itemized for us, with talents designed to boost gear that is not, and we'll have jesus for spellpower, and our threat will be insane.

Call me pessimistic, but I think I'm going to end up right on this one...


I initially dismissed this as being yet another "the sky is falling" post.

But I'm a bit concerned over some of the points Amran brings up....

That is, we're going to be single-target and aoe-tanking GODS for at least the first 70-75, as we're rolling around with 1000 spell power, 600+ BV and a disgusting amount of avoidance.

I took some of the tanking items off of mmo-champion and started to compare them to my current gear, just to see what I'd be losing/gaining. The first thing that I noticed is that the L75 pants listed are a TOUGH sell over my current pants (inscribed legplates of the Aldor).

Going from the legplates to Muradins lost greaves nets me:

159 Armor
46 Strength (23 BV)
83 Expertise

but costs me:

56 Stamina (!!)
25 Defense Rating
43 Dodge Rating
37 Spell Damage

I gave up on trying to compare, and am just going to roll with the assumption that the gear that's available will be similar to the gear that we're going to wear.

If this is what our itemization is going to look like, for the most part, then I do have to say that I am a bit worried. It makes me think that our current method of tanking is going to be significantly changed. I'll list out the stats that we'd get from the gamut of pieces currently available, and try to make some conclusions based on those pieces.

I realize that they'll be fairly general, especially until we start seeing what the L80 pieces look like, but hopefully this post can get people started on discussing those itemization trends and what they mean for our tanking methodology.

Legs - 46STR, 52STAM, 83EXP
Sword - 27STR, 39STAM
Chest - 42STR, 82STAM, 35DEF, 52P
Shield - 19STR, 43STAM, 21DEF, 27BR, 162BV
Helm - 32STR, 75STAM, 46DEF, 36P
Hands - 31STR, 48STAM, 21D, 24P

PRE-TOTALS:

197 Strength
339 Stamina
102 Defense Rating
21 Dodge Rating
27 Block Rating
112 Parry Rating
162 Block Value
83 Expertise

If we omit the libram, we have 16 item slots that give us stats similar to these (chest and legs are usually the big ticket items, so generalizations will likely show the new itemization in a more positive light than reality will dictate.)

We have 6/16 items needed for a complete set. So let's multiply our values by 16/6 (actually, let's say 3.0, just to be on the generous side) and see what a "complete" set in the 72-78 range might look like, keeping only the values for STR, STAM, Spellpower and BV, since those are, now, our main threat stats. BV is not going to be multiplied, as, I'm working under the assumption that they increased Str->BV scaling to compensate for not making "useless" items... or rather, items that would be useful for us, but useless to DKs.


591 STR (295BV)
1017 STAM
162 BV
0 Spellpower

Totals after adding in 5/5 DStr, Str based BV, 2/2 Sacred Duty, 5/5 CExp and 3/3 TbtL

680 STR (340 BV)
1180 STAM (354 SD)
457 BV
354 Spellpower

My gut feel, looking at those numbers, is that our tps might actually take a dip in the mid 70s as we transition through having some of our abilities based on spellpower and some based on str/bv.

The numbers also seem to indicate that we may have to work quite a bit harder to hold aggro on 4+ mobs as reflective damage and consecrate likely won't cut it with what appears to be some pretty lackluster spellpower on our gear.

Oh sure, some generic tanking gear plus a warrior weapon will likely give us enough spellpower to hold aggro off of the healers, but the days of forgetting to auto-attack and STILL managing to hold aggro over wanton seed of corruption spam looks somewhat grim. Tab-target-spamming HotR while throwing down some consecrate will probably be required to hold large groups off of aoe'ing casters.

Don't get me wrong, I still think we'll be aoe-tanking gods. But it looks like we may have to work harder at it.

Beta testers - Does your experience seem to confirm this gear trend so far?
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Postby Sabindeus » Wed Jul 23, 2008 12:56 pm

I am willing to bet cash money that itemization on max level raiding gear will look very different from the levelling gear we're seeing.
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Postby Kelaan » Wed Jul 23, 2008 1:13 pm

Sabindeus wrote:I am willing to bet cash money that itemization on max level raiding gear will look very different from the levelling gear we're seeing.


I agree; however, look at the sort of "tanking" plate we see even in BC in the 62-68 range: Not a whole lot of spelldamage, mostly stamina and defense, with some dodge/parry.

I'm looking forward to seeing more complete item listings on Wowhead, so that I can try and find out equivalence points for where Wrath blues will be similar to badge gear -- from an EH perspective, from a defensive-stats perspective, and from a threat perspective. (The down side is, the ___ ratings on Wrath things are tuned for their level, whereas dodge/parry/defense ratings will be depreciating as we get up towards 75-78 -- so I'll need to check Wowwiki or whatnot to refresh my understanding of how the ratings scale with level.)
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Postby Exalt » Wed Jul 23, 2008 1:48 pm

Kelaan wrote:
Sabindeus wrote:I am willing to bet cash money that itemization on max level raiding gear will look very different from the levelling gear we're seeing.


I agree; however, look at the sort of "tanking" plate we see even in BC in the 62-68 range: Not a whole lot of spelldamage, mostly stamina and defense, with some dodge/parry.


Yes, but that was likely out of necessity, due to crush mechanics.

What I really want to see is the new dungeon sets. Those will probably shed more light on how it's going to roll.

Compare:
http://www.wowhead.com/?item=28203
http://www.wowhead.com/?item=33522

True, the new dungeon set might not bear such a close resemblance to T7/8/9 ... but it might give a better idea. However, I had kinda hoped that gear would be more progressive for us this time around, rather than having 9 levels-worth of pure garbage for gear, followed by a LARGE 10 man full of mediocre gear and then, FINALLY some solid gear that we can work with.

I was really hoping that there would be more instance blues that I would actually *want* to use. What little I've currently seen only leaves me feeling extremely apprehensive, at best.
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Postby crabcrouton » Wed Jul 23, 2008 1:54 pm

AutomaticZen wrote:More fun with numbers!

Unleashing Seal data (ie, the damage caused by casting a Judgement):

uSoR: Damage = 45% * AP + 73% * SP

uSoL/W/J: Damage = 36% * AP + 58% * SP

Unleashing Seal of Light, Wisdom or Justice does 80% of the damage from unleashing Seal of Righteousness.

uSoV (0 debuffs) = 36% * AP + 58% * SP

uSoV (5 debuffs) = 54% * AP + 87% * SP

Unleashing Seal of Vengeance on a full stack does 20% more damage than unleashing Seal of Righteousness.


So while the constant damage of many Seals benefits from both AP/SP equally, the Judgements benefit more from SP it seems.

Incorrect I'm afraid.
1 item value = 1 strength = 2 ap
1 item value = ~1.2 spell power
Both seals and Judgements look like they scale better with strength than SP to me.
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Postby Amran20 » Wed Jul 23, 2008 2:13 pm

Exalt wrote:
Amran20 wrote:Tankadins will be the MOST overpowered at the beginning of WotLK, because we'll be sitting there in gear thats itemized for us, with talents designed to boost gear that is not, and we'll have jesus for spellpower, and our threat will be insane.

Call me pessimistic, but I think I'm going to end up right on this one...


I initially dismissed this as being yet another "the sky is falling" post.

But I'm a bit concerned over some of the points Amran brings up....



Thanks, I'm glad somebody understand what I was thinking.

That's why I'm *trying*, despite a bricked raiding comp (QQ), to get the very very best tanking gear available to me in TBC, because I plan on relying on that to carry me through Naxxramas. Yeah, call me old fashioned, but Tier 6 and Sunwell gear is superbly itemized, and I think it's going to still be better than some trash blues that they let Larry, the guy who lives in the dumpster behind Blizzard, itemize.
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Postby Arjuna » Wed Jul 23, 2008 2:24 pm

Amran20 wrote:Yeah, call me old fashioned, but Tier 6 and Sunwell gear is superbly itemized, and I think it's going to still be better than some trash blues that they let Larry, the guy who lives in the dumpster behind Blizzard, itemize.


would that be Leisure Suit Larry? :P
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Postby Exalt » Wed Jul 23, 2008 2:48 pm

Arjuna wrote:
Amran20 wrote:Yeah, call me old fashioned, but Tier 6 and Sunwell gear is superbly itemized, and I think it's going to still be better than some trash blues that they let Larry, the guy who lives in the dumpster behind Blizzard, itemize.


would that be Leisure Suit Larry? :P


none other...
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Postby Fridmarr » Wed Jul 23, 2008 2:54 pm

I agree that out of the gates we'll be doing some really good threat, but remember we don't even get shield slam until 75. As long as blizzard doesn't freak out (which they have done in the past --See Holy Pallys in TBC) and still examines end game properly, we'll be fine.
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Postby HiImRagnos » Wed Jul 23, 2008 2:55 pm

You guys seem to be forgetting, we may be horribly geared untill we see some tier, in which, assuming it isnt itemized terribly, will help us understand. Or they may just put more +spell on paladin tier, who knows.
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Postby Rom » Wed Jul 23, 2008 6:09 pm

Blizzard said in an interview (think it was the WWI) there will be bosses in the end game raids that would work better with one class of tank over the others.

It also seemed there was a nod that Warriors would be the best tank for single-target boss tanks (most of the tank and spank bosses), Deathknights would work best against bosses that unleashed spell damage and AoEs, Paladins versus bosses that released adds, and feral druids having their own unique place in the line-up.

Knowing that, I am guessing the raid gear is going to be used to help define those specific roles.

Theoretical example:
-Tankadin's 2 piece set bonus increases the threat produced by consecrate
-Warrior's 2 piece set bonus lengthens the duration of shield block
-Death Knight's 2 piece set bonus reduces AoE damage
-Druid's 2 piece set procs an increased amount of dodge or increases the amount of healing they receive

This would also validate another comment Blizzard made stating you should be able to complete a heroic with any of the 4 tanking classes with about the same chance of success.

So lvl 71-79, the differences in tanking style will be minor. At level 80, with raiding gear, the tanking classes will have more distinct styles of fighting and fill certain niches better than others.
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Postby Mavrix » Wed Jul 23, 2008 7:26 pm

Rom wrote:Blizzard said in an interview (think it was the WWI) there will be bosses in the end game raids that would work better with one class of tank over the others.

It also seemed there was a nod that Warriors would be the best tank for single-target boss tanks (most of the tank and spank bosses), Deathknights would work best against bosses that unleashed spell damage and AoEs, Paladins versus bosses that released adds, and feral druids having their own unique place in the line-up.

Knowing that, I am guessing the raid gear is going to be used to help define those specific roles.

Theoretical example:
-Tankadin's 2 piece set bonus increases the threat produced by consecrate
-Warrior's 2 piece set bonus lengthens the duration of shield block
-Death Knight's 2 piece set bonus reduces AoE damage
-Druid's 2 piece set procs an increased amount of dodge or increases the amount of healing they receive

This would also validate another comment Blizzard made stating you should be able to complete a heroic with any of the 4 tanking classes with about the same chance of success.

So lvl 71-79, the differences in tanking style will be minor. At level 80, with raiding gear, the tanking classes will have more distinct styles of fighting and fill certain niches better than others.



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