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Wotlk... doubts with gears

All things related to the expansion

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Postby AutomaticZen » Tue Jul 22, 2008 10:12 am

Some info on spells and scaling from Elitist Jerks:

Other notes on Judgments:
- Judgement of Light seems to be healing for quite a lot. I was being healed for ~300 health per proc in pure Ret gear.
- Seal of Righteousness scales with 10% of AP for 1H (not sure where the intercept is, though). I was wearing the SSO Aldor neck, and when it procced for 200 AP, SoR damage would jump by 20 points.
- Judgement of Righteousness appears to crit for 2x damage.
- AP does not appear to affect Seal of Vengeance. I could be wrong though, it's hard to match stacks with DoT ticks
- Seal of Vengeance is a 100% chance to apply on hit.
- Judgement of Vengeance may crit for 2x damage. I got a 2.2K JoV crit (5-stack) in pure Ret gear, and that seemed rather high to me.

- I can also confirm that your Block Value increases by 1 for every 2 Strength. (Intercept is not at zero, though. 646 Str = 313 Block Value)


New results: Seal of Righteousness, Seal of Light, Seal of Wisdom, Judgement of Light and Judgement of Wisdom all scale with both AP and SP. (I didn't test the other damage seals. This is all with zero talent points.)

Seal of Righteousness appears to follow the equation (WS = Weapon Speed):

Damage = 0.05 * WS * AP + 0.1 * WS * SP

This equation matched my experimental results perfectly. Maybe other people could take a look and see if it holds for them.

So SoR coefficients look like 5% per 1.0 weapon speed for Attack Power, and 10% per 1.0 weapon speed for Spell Power.


More preliminary results:

Seal of Light: Health gained = 28% * AP + 28% * SP

Seal of Wisdom: Mana gained = 14% * AP + 14% * SP

Judgement of Light proc: Health gained = 18% * AP + 18% * SP

Judgment of Wisdom proc: Mana gained = 9% * AP + 9% * SP


It's strictly AP scaling. There's no difference between the Cudgel and the Ancient Bone Mace for SoR.

The coefficients are the same for 1-H and 2-H weapons. There's no difference between the Ancient Bone Mace and Mag'hari Battleaxe (both 1.8 speed) for SoR.

Also, it looks like SoV scales with AP and SP as well. But it doesn't do that extra holy damage after you have a full 5-stack. Just the DoT damage.


I tested JoL and JoW in a group with a 72 paladin. I judged, he auto attacked. He gained my values of JoL and JoW. So it's the caster of the Judgement who determines how much health/mana is gained by the group.


I was wrong about Seal of Vengeance. The extra holy damage proc after a full stack still exists, just not if you have 0 spell power. Here are my initial Seal of Vengeance coefficients:

V = number of Vengeance debuffs on the target.

DoT: Damage = 7% * AP + 3.4% * V * SP => 7% * AP + 17% * SP @ full stack
Proc: Damage = 2% * SP


Fixing Consecrate to scale with AP or Block would probably help us as well. (I'll post this in general as well)
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Postby Worldie » Tue Jul 22, 2008 10:18 am

All those numbers menaged to grant me a big headache.
theckhd wrote:Fuck no, we've seen what you do to guilds. Just imagine what you could do to an entire country. Just visiting the US might be enough to make the southern states try to secede again.

halabar wrote:Noo.. you don't realize the problem. Worldie was to negative guild breaking energy like Bolvar is to the Scourge. If Worldie is removed, than someone must pick up that mantle, otherwise that negative guild breaking energy will run rampant, destroying all the servers.
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Postby Sabindeus » Tue Jul 22, 2008 10:19 am

yeah all that info got posted on the beta forums. I quoted it in another thread.

http://forums.worldofwarcraft.com/threa ... 0&sid=2000
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Postby Fridmarr » Tue Jul 22, 2008 10:24 am

Worldie wrote:All those numbers menaged to grant me a big headache.


Yeah I need Dorvan and Jere to get to work on those and tell me what skills I should be using, and stats I should be chasing :)


Am I the only one whose little voice inside their head has an Italian accent when reading Worldie's posts?
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Postby Worldie » Tue Jul 22, 2008 10:26 am

You should hear me speaking, Italian accent is interesting sometimes when talking about tartles and ships (turtles and sheeps)
theckhd wrote:Fuck no, we've seen what you do to guilds. Just imagine what you could do to an entire country. Just visiting the US might be enough to make the southern states try to secede again.

halabar wrote:Noo.. you don't realize the problem. Worldie was to negative guild breaking energy like Bolvar is to the Scourge. If Worldie is removed, than someone must pick up that mantle, otherwise that negative guild breaking energy will run rampant, destroying all the servers.
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Postby jere » Tue Jul 22, 2008 11:46 am

Well, without the calculations for JoR and JoV, it will be hard to tell.

The long and short of it is that SoR still outscales SoV in general.

However, with a 100% proc rate, you can pretty much assume a stable 5 stack.

This will put SoR at a disadvantage for a long time because while a dodge/parry/miss will disable your SoR damage for that attack, it has litterally no effect on SoV as it is ticking once the stack is up, and unless every one of your swings is dodged/parried/misses for 18 seconds, you are gonna have a 5 stack up.

I would wager with napkin math that the spelldmg/AP crossover point will be rather high and that SoV will out-threat SoR for quite a while (possibly permanently depending on itemization, we'll have to see). Though hit capping and expertise capping might help out, depending on what they look like in terms of itemization at that level. As soon as we get JoR and JoV calculations, I can start some more napkin math and maybe give yall some cross over equations.

EDIT: Though that is based off of the current ideal for SoV. Since they both scale with AP as well, that might get diluted...oh the math to run.
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Postby Tev » Tue Jul 22, 2008 12:47 pm

If we get crit from agility, melee and spell crit are now combined.


l2read

crit RATING affects both, not crit from agility.
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Postby Elladan » Tue Jul 22, 2008 12:48 pm

On the issue of AoE tanking, aren't we all forgetting holy wrath?

It now damages everyone and stuns undead/demons. This makes up a big deal of AoE threat, I assume
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Postby Chunes » Tue Jul 22, 2008 1:31 pm

I was under the impression it was still only for demons. It would be far too kind of bliz to give us an ability like that to damage all targets.
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Postby Sabindeus » Tue Jul 22, 2008 1:33 pm

Elladan wrote:On the issue of AoE tanking, aren't we all forgetting holy wrath?

It now damages everyone and stuns undead/demons. This makes up a big deal of AoE threat, I assume


you are misreading it.
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ya

Postby Mavrix » Tue Jul 22, 2008 1:57 pm

Elladan wrote:On the issue of AoE tanking, aren't we all forgetting holy wrath?

It now damages everyone and stuns undead/demons. This makes up a big deal of AoE threat, I assume


That is how the tooltip reads to me as well, but is that actually what happens in beta in practice or is it a tooltip typo?
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Re: ya

Postby aranil » Tue Jul 22, 2008 2:12 pm

Mavrix wrote:
Elladan wrote:On the issue of AoE tanking, aren't we all forgetting holy wrath?

It now damages everyone and stuns undead/demons. This makes up a big deal of AoE threat, I assume


That is how the tooltip reads to me as well, but is that actually what happens in beta in practice or is it a tooltip typo?


Actually, reading the tool tip, I'm totally lost, it can be taken as "Does XX damage to all targets and if they are demons/undead, it will stun them in additon to damage" or "We added a stun to HW, woooo" -_-
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Postby Worldie » Tue Jul 22, 2008 2:30 pm

It doesnt look like hitting any non undead/demon target.
theckhd wrote:Fuck no, we've seen what you do to guilds. Just imagine what you could do to an entire country. Just visiting the US might be enough to make the southern states try to secede again.

halabar wrote:Noo.. you don't realize the problem. Worldie was to negative guild breaking energy like Bolvar is to the Scourge. If Worldie is removed, than someone must pick up that mantle, otherwise that negative guild breaking energy will run rampant, destroying all the servers.
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Postby Karock » Wed Jul 23, 2008 12:53 am

If we're looking at the old system, you knew that getting spell damage would benefit every spell you have. Every damn one. Now we're going to be using strength, which means that consecrate/ret aura/holy shield are going to fall by the wayside in terms of TPS.


Lols OH NOES NOW RET AURA WON'T SCALE QQ

Sorry dude but that was just pretty funny and it seems to me you're grasping at straws if you're bringing up a spell that doesn't scale now as a "setback" for wotlk.
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Postby Hammerjudge » Wed Jul 23, 2008 2:10 am

AutomaticZen wrote:As I posted on a thread in the gear forum:

AutomaticZen wrote:It seems strength is our new threat stat.


It'll be interesting to see what they think we'll be using.


The tanking items have stamina, which is our new threat stat I think (with 30% conversion to SD), but you're right they have no +defence on it.
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