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Wotlk... doubts with gears

All things related to the expansion

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Postby ulushnar » Tue Jul 22, 2008 5:23 am

Erendis wrote:
Ulushnar wrote:We'll wait and see I guess. But i'm reasonably optimistic about the effects of the Sta - Spellpower conversion + a Spellpower weapon and Shield for AoE.


I don't see that being good enough in an AOE situation. Lets give a tank with 2000 stam. Thats 600 spell damage. I'll say you can squeeze in another 400 from weapon and shield and enchants. So 1000 spell damage. That seems like a alot. But when kind of threat will mages (for example) be putting out at level 80? Esp since they are getting rid of blessing of salvation?


This is kinda my problem. even though we have the talents and some indication of the early 70s itemization, we have no idea how it's gonna pan out endgame. Were the drops in Ramparts/Blood furnace the same ones you used to tank at 70?

It's not worth worrying until we get our first look at T7.
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Postby Erendis » Tue Jul 22, 2008 5:31 am

Ulushnar wrote:
Erendis wrote:
Ulushnar wrote:We'll wait and see I guess. But i'm reasonably optimistic about the effects of the Sta - Spellpower conversion + a Spellpower weapon and Shield for AoE.


I don't see that being good enough in an AOE situation. Lets give a tank with 2000 stam. Thats 600 spell damage. I'll say you can squeeze in another 400 from weapon and shield and enchants. So 1000 spell damage. That seems like a alot. But when kind of threat will mages (for example) be putting out at level 80? Esp since they are getting rid of blessing of salvation?


This is kinda my problem. even though we have the talents and some indication of the early 70s itemization, we have no idea how it's gonna pan out endgame. Were the drops in Ramparts/Blood furnace the same ones you used to tank at 70?

It's not worth worrying until we get our first look at T7.


I would agree. While I have my reservations about what Blizzard is doing I am certainly going into WotlK with an open mind. 70-79 won't matter what our gear is and hopefully they have something great planned for us at 80 with raiding.
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Postby ulushnar » Tue Jul 22, 2008 5:43 am

Erendis wrote:I would agree. While I have my reservations about what Blizzard is doing I am certainly going into WotlK with an open mind. 70-79 won't matter what our gear is and hopefully they have something great planned for us at 80 with raiding.


I imagine Tier gear's gonna keep it's spellpower. If they'd intended the complete removal of spellpower from our threat mechanics, then they'd have already retuned the tier sets of folks in beta like they did with Ret gear back in 2.3. We'd also see more AP coefficents for Consecrate, Holy Shield et al like they've done with the Seals.

I just find it ironic after hearing a lot over the last year about people wanting more synergy in tanking stats, now that they've given us two powerful synergies, we're moaning about them.
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Postby moduspwnens » Tue Jul 22, 2008 6:23 am

Ulushnar wrote:It's not worth worrying until we get our first look at T7.


LOL INTELLECT
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Postby jere » Tue Jul 22, 2008 6:25 am

With some of the mana costs going up so drastically (like consecration), I may have to rethink my position on some intellect lol
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Postby ulushnar » Tue Jul 22, 2008 6:26 am

jere wrote:With some of the mana costs going up so drastically (like consecration), I may have to rethink my position on sitting lol


Fix'd!
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Postby jere » Tue Jul 22, 2008 6:29 am

Ulushnar wrote:
jere wrote:With some of the mana costs going up so drastically (like consecration), I may have to rethink my position on sitting lol


Fix'd!


One of our warrior tanks tried that on Azgalore a couple weeks ago. It didn't fair well lol.
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Postby Worldie » Tue Jul 22, 2008 7:15 am

jere wrote:
Ulushnar wrote:
jere wrote:With some of the mana costs going up so drastically (like consecration), I may have to rethink my position on sitting lol


Fix'd!


One of our warrior tanks tried that on Azgalore a couple weeks ago. It didn't fair well lol.

I tried that on maghteridon, 20k cleaves are srs business.
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Postby Elixirs » Tue Jul 22, 2008 7:31 am

We might be over-thinking this (or maybe I'm under-thinking)...

It seems to me that they are moving our mana more towards a rage style bar. A lot of new abilities are a percent of your base mana. Every move a warrior does is basically a percentage move that is easily calculated because a rage bar is 100 rage.

The new mana costs on consecrate could just be placeholder values until they figure out what percentage of mana they want it to cost.

The most simple fix for this is to adjust SA to account for a lower mana pool and new spell costs.

But then again, I could be way off base because I just woke up and can't think straight :P
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Postby ulushnar » Tue Jul 22, 2008 7:38 am

Elixirs wrote:It seems to me that they are moving our mana more towards a rage style bar. A lot of new abilities are a percent of your base mana. Every move a warrior does is basically a percentage move that is easily calculated because a rage bar is 100 rage.


A lot of mana abilities that have a fixed effect are expressed as a % of your base mana pool. Eg:

http://www.wowhead.com/?spell=20773

or

http://www.wowhead.com/?spell=4987

you're overthinking the significance of that little nugget.
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Postby moduspwnens » Tue Jul 22, 2008 7:41 am

Yeah, base mana is the mana you have naked, I believe. So, 6% of your mana when naked is how much Cleanse costs.
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Postby agamemnoch » Tue Jul 22, 2008 8:01 am

Tev wrote:
If they kept with the old model we would have 3 tanking gear sets. One for Warriors. One for Pallys and one for DK's. In the new model there will be one set. A set that would probably be perfectly itemized for warriors (and DK?) with tweaks made to pally tanks to allow us to be able to use it (perhaps suboptimally?).


Thats my concern right there. Having seen and experienced first hand the issue of the gap between warrior tanking and paladin tanking (especially from gear), it feels like the gear will be perfect for warriors, great for DKs, and good for paladins.... assuming the same gear and player skill, who would you have MT (excluding niche fights)?

What it comes down to is how much value does 1 pt of a stat have for warriors, DK, or paladins?
Str?
Armor?
BV?
Agi?
Ignore armor?
etc...

What happens if/when all the end game tanking gear has some amount of Ignore Armor on it? Great for warriors as it'll increase their damage/threat/rage, useless for paladins as we derive our threat from holy damage.

What about agility? Good for warriors, more dodge and crits, again less useful for us, we still get dodge but melee crits are of less use to us when many of our abilities are based off spell crit.

Or will they just decide that these types of stats aren't important enough for tank gear in which you wind up with a very basic, forgive me, boring line up of gear. Oh look, generic_upgrade_helm_0013 with +54 armor, +5 str, +8 stam, I feel the excitement oozing already. Of coarse while this might be acceptable to some of us, it potentially cheats those classes who can use those stats to perform their job better.


L2Play. We will get more threat back from spiritual attunement. If we get crit from agility, melee and spell crit are now combined. Crit on a holy shield slam, or a HoTR or even a Judgement and you get .......MORE threat.
Strength also gives us more block value. We block ~every~ melee attack (practically) which mitigates MORE damage than warriors mitigate. PLUS we also gain threat from blocks as well as our holy shield slam.
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Postby Sabindeus » Tue Jul 22, 2008 8:06 am

Ok so, having read the various reports on the beta forums, it seems painfully obvious that Strength is our new threat stat.

Here's a list of our threat skills that scale with Strength (tested by people on the beta forums):

Seal of Righteousness/Vengeance
Judgement of Righteousness/Vengeance
Holy Shield Slam (2 str = 1 BV)
Divine Swipe

Here's a list of what only scales with Spell Power (maybe, untested so far)
Holy Shield
Avenger's Shield
Consecration


So yeah, we're going to want Strength. Whether we want a Spell Power weapon, however... the tradeoff will be to see how badly losing the weapon damage affects Divine Swipe versus our other skills. Either way, we will want Strength and Stamina.
Last edited by Sabindeus on Tue Jul 22, 2008 8:24 am, edited 1 time in total.
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Postby Obrimos » Tue Jul 22, 2008 8:07 am

Sabindeus wrote:Ok so, having read the various reports on the beta forums, it seems painfully obvious that Strength is our new threat stat.

Here's a list of our threat skills that scale with Strength (tested by people on the beta forums):

Seal of Righteousness/Vengeance
Judgement of Righteousness/Vengeance
Consecration
Holy Shield Slam (2 str = 1 BV)
Divine Swipe

Here's a list of what only scales with Spell Power (maybe, untested so far)
Holy Shield
Avenger's Shield



So yeah, we're going to want Strength. Whether we want a Spell Power weapon, however... the tradeoff will be to see how badly losing the weapon damage affects Divine Swipe versus our other skills. Either way, we will want Strength and Stamina.


Got a link to the proven Str -> Consecration?
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Postby Sabindeus » Tue Jul 22, 2008 8:22 am

Obrimos wrote:
Sabindeus wrote:Ok so, having read the various reports on the beta forums, it seems painfully obvious that Strength is our new threat stat.

Here's a list of our threat skills that scale with Strength (tested by people on the beta forums):

Seal of Righteousness/Vengeance
Judgement of Righteousness/Vengeance
Consecration
Holy Shield Slam (2 str = 1 BV)
Divine Swipe

Here's a list of what only scales with Spell Power (maybe, untested so far)
Holy Shield
Avenger's Shield



So yeah, we're going to want Strength. Whether we want a Spell Power weapon, however... the tradeoff will be to see how badly losing the weapon damage affects Divine Swipe versus our other skills. Either way, we will want Strength and Stamina.


Got a link to the proven Str -> Consecration?


My apologies. Consecration does NOT scale with Strength. edited my original post

That changes things, but I'm not sure how much.
Last edited by Sabindeus on Tue Jul 22, 2008 8:26 am, edited 2 times in total.
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