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Wotlk... doubts with gears

All things related to the expansion

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Postby Tev » Tue Jul 22, 2008 12:16 am

Kelaan wrote:
Tev wrote:oh and "Increases your Rage by X" = STR/AP/CRIT, "Increases the damage of your Shield Slam by X" = BV


Those happen to work well for warriors, yes. However, the point is that come Wotlk, they will be good for us as WELL. Consider how much more often we will be blocking hits, and suddenly block value will end up being a much bigger proportion of our mitigation than for warriors (esp since shield block will have a long cooldown -- though they have talents to make it proc a refreshed cooldown).

Now, how AP or BV will affect our threat is a different story. I expect our abilities will have damage (or threat) that scales with them.

edit: as for gear sets ... only time will tell what we will need.

- Tanking gear. Probably have a "threat" set as well as a "boss tankin'" set, but they will probably share more pieces than ours currently might.
- Healing gear
- DPS gear

I don't really see the number of sets of gear changing much .. with the exception that we won't need an Uncrushable set as well.


Unless its changes, consecrate only scales with spell power, so we'll need a str tanking set for bosses and up to 3 mobs, a spell power set for greater than 3 aoe tanking, healing set, dps set. Since blizzard seems determined to keep refusing my request for 60 slot bags, I'm getting geared down so to speak. Add in any resist sets and I'm going to be asking for an engineering banker.
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Postby Karock » Tue Jul 22, 2008 12:30 am

Tev wrote:Unless its changes, consecrate only scales with spell power, so we'll need a str tanking set for bosses and up to 3 mobs, a spell power set for greater than 3 aoe tanking, healing set, dps set. Since blizzard seems determined to keep refusing my request for 60 slot bags, I'm getting geared down so to speak. Add in any resist sets and I'm going to be asking for an engineering banker.


I really don't see this being the case at all.

For one they're removing spell damage (spellpower) from tanking armor so we won't have the option to pick up an "aoe set" and a "single target set." On that note the only real piece of possible spellpower "tanking" gear we'll likely have is a mainhand which doubles as a healing mainhand as well. Beyond that it's likely going to be all holy plate or strength/defense/dodge/parry/block plate.

In other words, our gear sets won't increase in number at all, if anything they'll go down because we'll likely have less "threat" gear separate of our mitigation gear.

Finally, the stam = spellpower change is probably intended to be "enough to AoE tank" to the current threat standards at level 80, so there will be no NEED to have spell damage specific gear to AoE tank.

Sure, sure MORE threat is always better (like there's plenty of spell damage mail out there you COULD use for more threat right now), but you can't always have your cake and eat it too. I think that the majority of us will get over the fact that now we stack stamina instead of "spell damage" in general for mass AoE threat in normal armor slots.
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Postby Tev » Tue Jul 22, 2008 12:38 am

True, I'm already looking forward to swaping out a lot of gems I have now for pure stam gems, maintaining just enough on avoidince stats to remain uncrushable has been a constant and expensive thorn in my side. No more crushing mobs makes me a very happy pally.

If what you say is indeed the case end game, then I'm going to have to get an early jump on some of the holy pally gear for my soloing set. Unless they somehow make solo aoe grinding not as viable as it is now, its my preferred way to do, well anything on my own. Its an addiction to me, even if I only need 1 more mob in a quest, I'm not happy unless it has 7~8 of its friends.
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Postby ulushnar » Tue Jul 22, 2008 1:21 am

Amran20 wrote:Ok, IIRC, 2 Str = 1 BV?

And strength would also add to our overall weapon damage, increasing threat from HotR.

Where else am I missing now?


SoR, SoV and the new Belf version of SoV all scale with Attack Power now as well as Spelldamage. So that's Seals, HotR and ShoR all scaling with Strength, as well as it giving us a ton of BV for AoE tanking.

Looks like Str will be an important threat stat for us. And on top of that we'll get a ton of "free" spellpower from Stamina.

People have been begging for decent stat synergy for Protection. now we have it, they're moaning?
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Postby Fridmarr » Tue Jul 22, 2008 1:28 am

Amran20 wrote:Ok, IIRC, 2 Str = 1 BV?

And strength would also add to our overall weapon damage, increasing threat from HotR.

Where else am I missing now?


Well the only mitigation you get from it is BV, which hasn't shown up on any non shield armor yet. Since DKs don't use shields, it may not. From what I've heard, AP is affecting seals and judgments as well, and of course strength increases Shield of the Righteous.

I guess my point is though, when you say strength does nothing for us, I counter that with spell power does nothing for us, outside of threat. At least now, we have a threat stat that also provides mitigation.

Erendis wrote: Instead of making a complex system solid they decide to just simplfy. The easier the thoeries behind the game the less and less I'm interested in it.


Easier for who? I mean there was nothing tricky about looking at spell damage on an item and figuring out what it did. Heck, since now we have to look at both stamina and strength and match that to various skills, it's much more complicated now. It gets even better when you start factoring in hit and expertise. If you want complicated, the new system is much more complicated than the old.

Even from blizz's perspective, the old system wasn't complicated. It was cumbersome, and the result was bad gear.
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Postby Erendis » Tue Jul 22, 2008 2:35 am

Fridmarr wrote:
Erendis wrote: Instead of making a complex system solid they decide to just simplfy. The easier the thoeries behind the game the less and less I'm interested in it.


Easier for who? I mean there was nothing tricky about looking at spell damage on an item and figuring out what it did. Heck, since now we have to look at both stamina and strength and match that to various skills, it's much more complicated now. It gets even better when you start factoring in hit and expertise. If you want complicated, the new system is much more complicated than the old.

Even from blizz's perspective, the old system wasn't complicated. It was cumbersome, and the result was bad gear.


I don't mean that Spell Damage is complicated I mean that multitude of gear was complicated. If they kept with the old model we would have 3 tanking gear sets. One for Warriors. One for Pallys and one for DK's. In the new model there will be one set. A set that would probably be perfectly itemized for warriors (and DK?) with tweaks made to pally tanks to allow us to be able to use it (perhaps suboptimally?).

My solution would be to make the old system work through expanding what they have already been doing all through BC. Tokens, turn-ins, badges (although maybe a different badge for each tier). Instead they decided to make it more simple. Less gear overall which means less sets they have to itemize.
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Postby ulushnar » Tue Jul 22, 2008 2:46 am

Erendis wrote:I don't mean that Spell Damage is complicated I mean that multitude of gear was complicated. If they kept with the old model we would have 3 tanking gear sets. One for Warriors. One for Pallys and one for DK's. In the new model there will be one set. A set that would probably be perfectly itemized for warriors (and DK?) with tweaks made to pally tanks to allow us to be able to use it (perhaps suboptimally?).


I'd personally rephrase that as:

"A set that would probably be perfectly itemized for warriors (and DK?) which they've tweaked Tankadin abilities to use just as optimally."

Our niche and abilities have remained the same. All that has changed is the underlying itemization mechanics.

Erendis wrote:My solution would be to make the old system work through expanding what they have already been doing all through BC. Tokens, turn-ins, badges (although maybe a different badge for each tier). Instead they decided to make it more simple. Less gear overall which means less sets they have to itemize.


Tokens are all very well and good, but it's not quite the same as the "zomg, new loot nau!" vibe. It also requires you to know, at a glance, what the token turn-in is. It slows things up if folks have to check Wowhead or Atlasloot to see if the token they're turning is actually a worthwhile upgrade for them.

I'd personally have bosses drop meaningful loot rather than currency for items that you can turn in after the raid. And if they're gonna drop useful items, as i always say, it's better for them to drop one tanking item 30% of the time than three items 10% of the time.
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Postby Tev » Tue Jul 22, 2008 3:05 am

If they kept with the old model we would have 3 tanking gear sets. One for Warriors. One for Pallys and one for DK's. In the new model there will be one set. A set that would probably be perfectly itemized for warriors (and DK?) with tweaks made to pally tanks to allow us to be able to use it (perhaps suboptimally?).


Thats my concern right there. Having seen and experienced first hand the issue of the gap between warrior tanking and paladin tanking (especially from gear), it feels like the gear will be perfect for warriors, great for DKs, and good for paladins.... assuming the same gear and player skill, who would you have MT (excluding niche fights)?

What it comes down to is how much value does 1 pt of a stat have for warriors, DK, or paladins?
Str?
Armor?
BV?
Agi?
Ignore armor?
etc...

What happens if/when all the end game tanking gear has some amount of Ignore Armor on it? Great for warriors as it'll increase their damage/threat/rage, useless for paladins as we derive our threat from holy damage.

What about agility? Good for warriors, more dodge and crits, again less useful for us, we still get dodge but melee crits are of less use to us when many of our abilities are based off spell crit.

Or will they just decide that these types of stats aren't important enough for tank gear in which you wind up with a very basic, forgive me, boring line up of gear. Oh look, generic_upgrade_helm_0013 with +54 armor, +5 str, +8 stam, I feel the excitement oozing already. Of coarse while this might be acceptable to some of us, it potentially cheats those classes who can use those stats to perform their job better.
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Postby ulushnar » Tue Jul 22, 2008 3:15 am

Tev wrote:What happens if/when all the end game tanking gear has some amount of Ignore Armor on it? Great for warriors as it'll increase their damage/threat/rage, useless for paladins as we derive our threat from holy damage.

What about agility? Good for warriors, more dodge and crits, again less useful for us, we still get dodge but melee crits are of less use to us when many of our abilities are based off spell crit.


How much ignore armor's on Tanking gear atm? It's a DPS stat so I doubt it'll appear on any non-tier items.

Based on the blues we've already seen, non-tier Tanking items will probably have some of the following:

Strength
Hit Rating
Expertise
Stamina
Defense
Dodge/Parry

The only thing this itemization change affects is that we can now get generic, non-tier items with useful threat stats in a way that we couldn't before without creating a Warrior version and a Paladin version.
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Postby ulushnar » Tue Jul 22, 2008 3:19 am

Tev wrote:Or will they just decide that these types of stats aren't important enough for tank gear in which you wind up with a very basic, forgive me, boring line up of gear. Oh look, generic_upgrade_helm_0013 with +54 armor, +5 str, +8 stam, I feel the excitement oozing already. Of coarse while this might be acceptable to some of us, it potentially cheats those classes who can use those stats to perform their job better.


Replace +Str with +Spelldamage and tell me how that's different than our current situation?
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Postby Amran20 » Tue Jul 22, 2008 3:47 am

What I don't like about strength...

If we're looking at the old system, you knew that getting spell damage would benefit every spell you have. Every damn one. Now we're going to be using strength, which means that consecrate/ret aura/holy shield are going to fall by the wayside in terms of TPS.

"But Amran!", you cry, "30% of our Stamina will be enough spell damage to cover that."

I say, thats unlikely. Not only are we going to end up with shit for BV, because strength is a more expensive stat, depending on gear, we're going to gimp at least 1-2 of our spells due to having a spellpower thats slightly higher than our level 70 days. Tankadins will be the MOST overpowered at the beginning of WotLK, because we'll be sitting there in gear thats itemized for us, with talents designed to boost gear that is not, and we'll have jesus for spellpower, and our threat will be insane. Face it, this is sheer laziness on Blizzard's part, and ruins a lot of the uniqueness of this game.

You're all assuming that there is going to be good high stamina, high spellpower, with maybe some defensive stats for AoE tanking. I don't think there will be. I think if you really want to AoE, you'll have to bust out the old Tier 6.

Call me pessimistic, but I think I'm going to end up right on this one...
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Postby ulushnar » Tue Jul 22, 2008 3:59 am

We'll wait and see I guess. But i'm reasonably optimistic about the effects of the Sta - Spellpower conversion + a Spellpower weapon and Shield for AoE.
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Postby Erendis » Tue Jul 22, 2008 5:05 am

Ulushnar wrote:We'll wait and see I guess. But i'm reasonably optimistic about the effects of the Sta - Spellpower conversion + a Spellpower weapon and Shield for AoE.


I don't see that being good enough in an AOE situation. Lets give a tank with 2000 stam. Thats 600 spell damage. I'll say you can squeeze in another 400 from weapon and shield and enchants. So 1000 spell damage. That seems like a alot. But when kind of threat will mages (for example) be putting out at level 80? Esp since they are getting rid of blessing of salvation?

My issue is from a mechanical standpoint is also: Why do they move away from spell damage only part way? We obviously still need it. So some of our threat will be added to from physical source but some from spell damage. I don't see a consolidation of stats at all. I see a need for even more stats but the gear won't support that.

Now, IF they made the pally tanking tier sets roughly along the same lines as the current pally tanking gear and made the rest of the non-tier tanking pieces based around traditional warrior warrior model then I don't think I would have the same issue as I am having now.
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Postby Erendis » Tue Jul 22, 2008 5:05 am

EDIT: double posts are bad. :(
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Postby jere » Tue Jul 22, 2008 5:13 am

Fridmarr wrote:Well the only mitigation you get from it is BV, which hasn't shown up on any non shield armor yet. Since DKs don't use shields, it may not.


Well, also bear in mind that we are seeing random greens/blues from early Northrend. When BC came out, how many greens/blues had block value on them as a stat? I don't recall many, though there could have been a few I guess. We really haven't seen everything yet, and we haven't even seen raid level gear up to or past the the first raid. (remember how kara level gear was itemized differently than later raid gear).

It will be interesting to see how it plays out and what stats they add or don't add. The DK mechanics do you make you wonder if BV will be removed as a stat, but then the inclusion of our SS talent, which doesn't affect STR related BV, makes me wonder if we actually will. So we might end up seeing it on some gear down the road once people start getting further in the game.
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