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Change to Judgements!

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Postby KysenMurrin » Sun Jul 20, 2008 5:37 am

Small question that occured to me since I was helping a Warlock with their mount quest last night--won't the changes to judgements screw up the Paladin epic mount quest in its current incarnation? Wonder if it means the quest will be changed.
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Postby Teloc » Sun Jul 20, 2008 5:52 am

KysenMurrin wrote:Small question that occured to me since I was helping a Warlock with their mount quest last night--won't the changes to judgements screw up the Paladin epic mount quest in its current incarnation? Wonder if it means the quest will be changed.


It could, but you can also just have a higher level help you out as well and make the whole must judge this seal kinda pointless.

Though blizzard might change it if someone points it out to them, they do over look things like this at times.
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Postby Ahms » Sun Jul 20, 2008 9:01 am

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Postby Sober » Sun Jul 20, 2008 10:23 am

So that's nice, we can always debuff our target and keep a seperate seal up if we want, and all the judgements seem to also damage the target for holy damage. Makes the initial aggro grab much easier along with getting a debuff off quick and early.

I'm just pissed though now I need to have 3 judgement hotkeys.
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Postby Sechs » Sun Jul 20, 2008 10:44 am

Not really, most of the time you will only need to debuff the mobb once so using click to cast should work fine.
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Postby PsiVen » Sun Jul 20, 2008 1:32 pm

My judgement key is 5, so... shift-5 and alt-5. Done :)
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Postby Jtree » Sun Jul 20, 2008 1:57 pm

PsiVen wrote:My judgement key is 5, so... shift-5 and alt-5. Done :)


My judgment key is shift-3. :/

But then again, I doubt I'll judge anything but wisdom now.
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Postby Marsha » Sun Jul 20, 2008 2:37 pm

The beta is simply amazing for Paladin tanks atm and my only hope is we don't get nurfed to badly because of what Ret paladins can pull off now. To answer a few comments I saw on this thread...

The good old Judgement button is now gone. Yep not there anymore.

In it's place a Protection Paladin gets Judgement of Light, Judgement of Wisdom, and Judgement of Justice. To use you need some other seal up first such as regular Light, Wisdom, Justice, Righteousness, Vengeance, Blood (Alliance now gets a version called Martyr, while Horde gets a version of vengeance called corruption)

So as you might have seen in that video, to start combat you pop a seal, and then use one of the 3 judgements. That pretty much always hits and stays active as long as you keep hitting the mob. The seal you had up is still counting down like normal so you can get 3 judgements in before having to refresh the original seal.

Of course you also have the new 51 point talent Hammer of the Righteousness that is something we've needed for a long time. A short stun and loads of threat on up to 3 nearby mobs.

Simply amazing to see how easy it is to to hold multiple mobs now. Omen isn't working yet on Beta so I have no hard numbers to offer yet. With the change in how spell power is handled on some item you can actually make use of healing gear to tank with if needed. The new Touched By Light talent is quite simply one of the things that will help even fresh Paladin tanks generate loads of threat.

With my current gear set I go from around 600 spell power on Live to close to 1000. I can toss on a mix of PvP, Tanking, and Healer gear and get that close to 1300 sp and since there are no more crushing blows I still mitigate damage well.

One thing many haven't seemed to notice is the removal of Anticipation. Yep, it's gone but there are a number ways to get over 490 and while I haven't done the math for level 83 bosses I'm gonna guess we'll need to be somewhere north of 530 or so defense to get uncritable.

Something to remember that we haven't seen any of the higher level gear yet and that may change a lot of our options plus you have Inscription Glyph's you can equip at some point that add 20 defense not to mention various new enchants. I've yet to see what extra strength adds to our damage and of course we may see a change in the preferred weapons we want to use going for slower speed high dps over the old caster weapons we've been using.

If anyone has specific questions, ask away and I'll try and answer as I have time.
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Postby jere » Sun Jul 20, 2008 3:36 pm

It looked like even though you had JoL on the mob and SoW up on yourself, that when you judged, it did damage. Is it auto doing JoR or JoV when you do that or something? Or is that some other damage?
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Postby Galoheart » Sun Jul 20, 2008 4:47 pm

I've been reading the Paladin Beta forums all weekend and lots of testing going on with the "New" Judgement Mechanics. What it seems like is Judgements are being overhauled by the devs but lots of people are comparing it to the live servers and wondering if its indeed a "New" Change or a Bug in the way Judgements are working in the Beta.

Whats Known so Far:

1. Judgements and spell are affected both by AP and SP (Spell Power) and scale with both in effect.

2. All judgements now deal "Holy Damage" on judgement of the Active Seal, as well as the damage of the New Judgement in effect. So it will judge for example SOR for Holy damage and then judge SOL, SOW or SOJ for its damage and effect.

3. Judgements now Critt for 200% Holy Damage.

4. The One judgement rule on target as a debuff still remain as current.

5. Seals that were active before a Judgement was put in effect still remain active unless actively changed by player.

6. Paladin have a choice of adding three different Judgement effect to target of either SoL, SoW, SoJ which all deal Holy Damage. However only 1 target debuff will ever remain as usual. It just judge the current seal for effect and the Judgement effect you selected also. What I also heard is if you judged the same Seal in effect with the Liked Judgement it only activated One Judgement effect with liked Seals and Judgement. So if you had SoW and Judged JoW only one Judgement took effect vs having SOR and then either Judging SoL, SoW, JoJ.

7. Seem the judgements are giving back a healthy dose of Heals and Mana in effect more than it did before but many still don't know if Paladins will still have mana issues which is still being tested. Read one thread where a paladin was running a dungeon that still had threat issues and mana issues but he didn't say why.

8. It was noted that SOR didn't critt in testing but was still being tested.

9. Horde gets Seal of Corruption which is the same as Seal of Vengeance and Alliance gets Seal of Maytyr which has same effect of SOB.

10. Effect of All Judgements has the damage effect of what Seal of Crusader or Command did which it seams was rolled into effect of judgements best i could determine.

11. Of all the seals SOB was the only one that did not seem to scale with the new AP/SP effect. Still being tested last i read but it did not seem to scale like the others.

* Also noted that with the new SP and AP change which affects spells Paladins with around 400 Spell Damage before were now reporting it seem from gear having as much as 1000 SP which i guess is seeming to be normal in Beta at this point. Will see how all this pans out over time.

But seems lots of Beta testers as assuming that the new Judgement mechanic is a Bug in the intended effect vs a New Mechanic change. Im hoping at least that it is a new more active mechanic change vs a Bug.
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Postby Elladan » Mon Jul 21, 2008 11:50 am

Found this on the official boards

Hello. On Beta there is a new judgement system in place, I will explain it as it currently is on the patch, and will change it as it goes, as I'm sure it will be tweeked heavily.

On beta:

Seal of the Crusader removed. This is a buff, the effect of seal of the crusader has been made baseline into all the spells it could of affected. For example, consecrate now does more damage.

Judgement has been removed.

All seals now have one rank, that scales according to level and gear.

Seal of righteousness now also scales with attack power.

The effect of Judgement of Justice no longer prevents fear (Warlock spell, warrior shout, turn undead), but still prevents the mob from running away.

There are now three new spells.

Judgement of Wisdom
Judgement of Light
Judgement of Justice.

Using any of the new Judgement spells does not consume your current seal. Yes, your seal will last 30 seconds.

All of these spells do what the old Judgement did. IE: They judge your current seal.

However, it means you do not need to have Seal of Wisdom, Light and Justice activated to use them.

For example, if you have no seal up, and use Judgement of Wisdom, your target will have the Judgemment of Wisdom debuff, without even casting the initial Seal.

What this means, is that Seal of Wisdom, light and justice may be removed from Beta, as there is little point in having them (at least for the judging aspect, they may still be kept for the "whack for x mana aspect, BUT the health/mana gained from whacking a mob judged with wisdom has been buffed majorly)

Currently, on beta, all three Judgements do damage if you have a seal up, regardless of if you have a damage seal up or not (Using Judgement of justice while seal of wisdom up causes damage). There has been no word on this, but most believe this to be a bug. Currently all three Judgements are doing damage eqvuivilent to Judging righteousness.

This means, if you have Seal of command up, you may see this in your combat log.

You cast Judgement of Light.
Your target is afflicted with Judgement of Light.
Your target takes 800 damage to Judgement of Light
Your target takes 900 damage to Judgement (this would be Seal of command).

In addition, holy paladins on Beta are currently doing more damage than Rogues. Everytime a paladin swings to refresh their judgement, they also cause additional holy damage equal to as if they were casting Judgement to refresh, and not simply auto attacking.

For example.

I whack a mob for 150.
The mob takes 900 damage.
I whack a mob for 150.
The mob takes 900 damage.
I whack a mob for 150.
The mob takes 900 damage.
I cast Judgement of whatever.
The mob takes 900 damage.


http://forums.wow-europe.com/thread.html?topicId=5061876321&sid=1
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Postby Elvidnir » Mon Jul 21, 2008 12:14 pm

That has GOT to be a bug. No possible way it's intended.

I really want to play beta now though! o_O
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Postby Andryana » Mon Jul 21, 2008 12:25 pm

This caught my attention, don't think anyone mentioned it:

2. The proc rates on all three Seals have been increased to 100%. This is BAD because one of those proc rate increases is for a 2s stun, which if current trends continue will be on DR in under 3 seconds. Hence, it is useless
.

Quite good if you ask me, might be bad on justice.. but proccing every time on wisdom(was 50% before?) it's quite nice!

Source:

http://forums.wow-europe.com/thread.htm ... 6210&sid=1
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Postby Snake-Aes » Mon Jul 21, 2008 12:49 pm

Andryana wrote:This caught my attention, don't think anyone mentioned it:

2. The proc rates on all three Seals have been increased to 100%. This is BAD because one of those proc rate increases is for a 2s stun, which if current trends continue will be on DR in under 3 seconds. Hence, it is useless
.

Quite good if you ask me, might be bad on justice.. but proccing every time on wisdom(was 50% before?) it's quite nice!

Source:

http://forums.wow-europe.com/thread.htm ... 6210&sid=1
100% SoJ proc is actually very nice for ret if you think of it...their swing times is greater than the stun timer.
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Postby Khayne » Mon Jul 21, 2008 12:52 pm

Marsha wrote:

Of course you also have the new 51 point talent Hammer of the Righteousness that is something we've needed for a long time. A short stun and loads of threat


HotR stuns?

we just got a damn controllable short cooldown stun too?


Were a fucking disco priest in shadow whacking totems while playing rogue :P

(yes, i kinda replicated someone else from some other thread, but i´m starting to feel we´re going to be nerfed before all that goes live :p )
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