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Change to Judgements!

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Postby Jonlo » Sat Jul 19, 2008 9:03 am

Sharlos wrote:
KysenMurrin wrote:Based on what i'm reading here, what happens is that Seal of Light/Wisdom/Justice will behave as normal whatever judgement you use, but the difference is that the other seals - Righteousness, Command, Vengeance, Blood - will apply one of the the light/wisdom/justice debuffs depending which Judgement you use.


I Honestly wouldn't be surprised if they removed Seal of light/Wis/Justice.


I would be. I use JoW/SoW for farming things as prot sometimes. And when I was levelling to 70 (Back when AD was 50% reduced damage) I'd use JoL and SoL to aoe farm mobs for quests. I wouldn't sit and drink, I would just pull 5-6 mobs at 5% mana and 18% HP and use Light to survive. People in my leveling group thought I was crazy. SoJ is just funny as hell in WSG when picking on flag carrier healers.

Edit: Ok, so I spec Heart of the Crusader, run in, SoR, JoW, proc the JoW debuff on the mob, ALSO giving everyone 3% crit, Mana back, and giving me a threat lead.

God I love these buffs!
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Postby Sharlos » Sat Jul 19, 2008 9:21 am

Jonlo wrote:
Sharlos wrote:
KysenMurrin wrote:Based on what i'm reading here, what happens is that Seal of Light/Wisdom/Justice will behave as normal whatever judgement you use, but the difference is that the other seals - Righteousness, Command, Vengeance, Blood - will apply one of the the light/wisdom/justice debuffs depending which Judgement you use.


I Honestly wouldn't be surprised if they removed Seal of light/Wis/Justice.


I would be. I use JoW/SoW for farming things as prot sometimes. And when I was levelling to 70 (Back when AD was 50% reduced damage) I'd use JoL and SoL to aoe farm mobs for quests. I wouldn't sit and drink, I would just pull 5-6 mobs at 5% mana and 18% HP and use Light to survive. People in my leveling group thought I was crazy. SoJ is just funny as hell in WSG when picking on flag carrier healers.

Edit: Ok, so I spec Heart of the Crusader, run in, SoR, JoW, proc the JoW debuff on the mob, ALSO giving everyone 3% crit, Mana back, and giving me a threat lead.

God I love these buffs!


true, but our white damage will be going up, and two extra attacks useable while wearing a shield, both not costing much mana.

SoL/W/J are rarely used outside of soloing.
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Postby Dorvan » Sat Jul 19, 2008 9:27 am

Sharlos wrote:SoL/W/J are rarely used outside of soloing.


Incorrect. I frequently use SoW for AoE tanking, as is elps keep my mana up when I'm not taking a ton of damage, and the energy gain generates some threat on all mobs, making SoL/SoW our only AoE threat seals.
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Postby Sarima » Sat Jul 19, 2008 9:48 am

I really really don't get how Judgements and Seals will work in LK... :(
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Postby Obrimos » Sat Jul 19, 2008 9:56 am

Sarima wrote:I really really don't get how Judgements and Seals will work in LK... :(


We have the same Seals, but we have more Judgement spells outside of "Judgement".

Now instead of judging using the Judgement spell, you judge your seals using JoW, JoL, or JoJ.
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Re: Change to Judgements!

Postby Tahl » Sat Jul 19, 2008 11:06 am

Teloc wrote:Also..judging isn't removing the seal right now, they don't know if its a bug or supposed to happen.


If this change stays, dipping into the Ret tree for Deflection is getting less and less appealing. We got a buff to pure avoidance from Anticipation changes anyway, Improved Judgements is not needed anymore (due to so many new things to fit into our rotation), and now Benediction (reduces mana cost of Seals and Judgements) is much less useful if we won't be constantly resealing/judging every 8-10 seconds.

I'm hoping the 5% parry won't be needed and I can spend all those points elsewhere!
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Postby Mavrix » Sat Jul 19, 2008 1:24 pm

With Judgment being off the global cooldown, imp judgement may be MORE useful now since you don't have to reseal after using it. More judgements = more threat (or other benefits).
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Postby Kethion » Sat Jul 19, 2008 1:28 pm

To my understanding it actually would work something like this (don't forget JoC was removed):

1. Use Seal of Righteousness
2. Use Judgement of Wisdom
---> Mob takes JoR damage
---> The Judgement of Wisdom debuff effect is applied to the mob
3. Reseal (assuming that the seal falling off isn't a bug)
4. Use Judgement of Wisdom again to retain the Wisdom debuff, or you can switch the debuff you have on the mob by Judging Light or Justice.

So to make it simple: to judge a specific seal that applies a debuff, you no longer have to reseal to that specific one. You can just keep whatever seal you want on and then use the different judgement to change the debuff.
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Postby d503 » Sat Jul 19, 2008 2:46 pm

Kethion wrote:To my understanding it actually would work something like this (don't forget JoC was removed):

1. Use Seal of Righteousness
2. Use Judgement of Wisdom
---> Mob takes JoR damage
---> The Judgement of Wisdom debuff effect is applied to the mob
3. Reseal (assuming that the seal falling off isn't a bug)
4. Use Judgement of Wisdom again to retain the Wisdom debuff, or you can switch the debuff you have on the mob by Judging Light or Justice.

So to make it simple: to judge a specific seal that applies a debuff, you no longer have to reseal to that specific one. You can just keep whatever seal you want on and then use the different judgement to change the debuff.


I think this presumes that our melee attacks will not refresh our judgements now...is that true? Will we have to continue to judge in order to keep Wisdom or Light up on the mobs...not to say I'm not constantly judging anyway, but this could potentially end up being annoying.

I'm very excited to see this mechanic in action. I've got a friend in beta who's got a paladin awaiting transfer over, so I'ma have him do some testing on the new judgement system, as well as dmg output, and overall stat stuff...for all we know they could've retroactively buffed all BC tanking gear so it's along the lines of WotLK tanking.
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Postby Fridmarr » Sat Jul 19, 2008 4:40 pm

d503 wrote:
Kethion wrote:To my understanding it actually would work something like this (don't forget JoC was removed):

1. Use Seal of Righteousness
2. Use Judgement of Wisdom
---> Mob takes JoR damage
---> The Judgement of Wisdom debuff effect is applied to the mob
3. Reseal (assuming that the seal falling off isn't a bug)
4. Use Judgement of Wisdom again to retain the Wisdom debuff, or you can switch the debuff you have on the mob by Judging Light or Justice.

So to make it simple: to judge a specific seal that applies a debuff, you no longer have to reseal to that specific one. You can just keep whatever seal you want on and then use the different judgement to change the debuff.


I think this presumes that our melee attacks will not refresh our judgements now...is that true? Will we have to continue to judge in order to keep Wisdom or Light up on the mobs...not to say I'm not constantly judging anyway, but this could potentially end up being annoying.

I'm very excited to see this mechanic in action. I've got a friend in beta who's got a paladin awaiting transfer over, so I'ma have him do some testing on the new judgement system, as well as dmg output, and overall stat stuff...for all we know they could've retroactively buffed all BC tanking gear so it's along the lines of WotLK tanking.


I'd be ok with that I think. The refreshing on hit was always handled oddly in my opinion. Basically you got credit for casting it each time it hit and that caused some odd side effects at times. The only tricky part is that judgements that put debuffs up are currently not resitable. I guess that might change? By current rules that would make judgement a binary spell?
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Postby cmccad » Sat Jul 19, 2008 5:34 pm

News from the front.

Seal and Judgement of Righteousness scale with AP (or possibly that Blessing of Might adds spell power? Needs testing). Judgements crit for 200% damage. Blood/Martyr, Vengeance/Corruption also appear to scale with AP/SP at the same time. Command is apparently only AP.

Judgement of Light/Wisdom/Justice deal holy damage as well as applying the debuff. THIS MIGHT BE A BUG with just justice, it's hard to say for sure, damage appears to be consistent with Seal of Command. (see post 18 for details).

Does this fit with str becoming a primary tank stat? More evidence that AP will be just as useful (more useful?) to pally tanks than spell power? Might be time to start rolling on warrior tank weapons...
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Postby Sharlos » Sat Jul 19, 2008 8:10 pm

cmccad wrote:News from the front.

Seal and Judgement of Righteousness scale with AP (or possibly that Blessing of Might adds spell power? Needs testing). Judgements crit for 200% damage. Blood/Martyr, Vengeance/Corruption also appear to scale with AP/SP at the same time. Command is apparently only AP.

Judgement of Light/Wisdom/Justice deal holy damage as well as applying the debuff. THIS MIGHT BE A BUG with just justice, it's hard to say for sure, damage appears to be consistent with Seal of Command. (see post 18 for details).

Does this fit with str becoming a primary tank stat? More evidence that AP will be just as useful (more useful?) to pally tanks than spell power? Might be time to start rolling on warrior tank weapons...


That's..very interesting.


And Seal of Command has always scaled with both stats. The proc has a 20% spell damage co-efficient and the judgement has 42ish% co-efficient.

Any idea if this is without the Ret AP>SP talent? And any idea how much SoR scales with AP?


If SoR and SoV/C scale with AP then Strength would pretty easily become our primary threat stat. Giving us weapon damage for HotR and Block Value for ShoR.
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Postby Sechs » Sun Jul 20, 2008 2:58 am

If this is true it's idd great news.
What i always found most annoying with wisdom and light is that while judging it i put my threat on hold for 10 sec if it do dmg now like righteous do even if its just very minor threat its still a big improvement from the almost non existent 50 threat (i think) as it is now.
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Postby mclem » Sun Jul 20, 2008 3:59 am

Might be old news, but I can't find Seal of the Crusader on wowhead. Wonder if it's been ditched? It's the only other Seal I can think of which actually has a debuff on judging.
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Postby Worldie » Sun Jul 20, 2008 4:47 am

Joc has been removed and integrated in every skill (every skill deals damage like if it had 210 more spelldamage)
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