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"Paladins won't be great tanks"

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"Paladins won't be great tanks"

Postby tyronis_1 » Sat Jul 19, 2008 12:21 am

So a holy pally was talking to my guild leader (a soon to be prot warrior, he rerolled to my server and is currently arms while getting a prot set together) about WotLK today, and said that pally tanks were looking to be great tanks once it hits. My GL said "no, they won't, they'll be decent, like they are now. They just don't have shield wall and last stand." He then went on to talk about how any class that can tank/heal/dps will never be really good at any one of those things. I kept my mouth shut because 1) He's my GL, but also because I wasn't quite sure how to respond to that. I've never played a warrior so I'm not incredibly familiar with them, and I know those oh shit buttons are useful, and that they get the extra 4% mitigation, and that they don't have to use itemization on threat for the most part, all of which supports his argument.

What I'm not sure about is why Paladins are just as good at tanking as warriors are(we're talking bosses here for the most part, trash/aoe is obviously a different story), though I defintely feel like we are. We have divine shield and ardent defender, but DS is situational and AD is no last stand/shield wall. I tried looking for a thread that would allow me to successfully argue with him because I'm tired of hearing that pallies are second rate tanks, but I couldn't find much. Any comments or threads to point me to?
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Postby Ruex » Sat Jul 19, 2008 12:33 am

Ask you GL if he left his brain back in Molten core.
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Postby Ashmadai » Sat Jul 19, 2008 12:50 am

This kind of attitude is just something you have to deal with. In your case, it seems like the Warrior has a little envy because his class can't heal. You'll see that a lot "You can't be as good a tank because you're a hybrid." It doesn't really mean anything. Good tanks are good, regardless of their class. Skill > what button you clicked when you created.
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Re: "Paladins won't be great tanks"

Postby Amirya » Sat Jul 19, 2008 12:54 am

tyronis_1 wrote:They just don't have shield wall and last stand.


We have Holy Shield and Ardent Defender and Lay on Hands. He gets Shield Wall and Last Stand and Heavy Netherweave Bandages. :lol:
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Re: "Paladins won't be great tanks"

Postby Pizbit » Sat Jul 19, 2008 2:04 am

Amirya wrote:
tyronis_1 wrote:They just don't have shield wall and last stand.


We have Holy Shield and Ardent Defender and Lay on Hands. He gets Shield Wall and Last Stand and Heavy Netherweave Bandages. :lol:


WE HAZ SHIELD SLAM TOO IN WOLK@!@@!!!!

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Re: "Paladins won't be great tanks"

Postby Gideon » Sat Jul 19, 2008 2:08 am

Shield wall is a much better survival button than LoH. Although we do have a threat button (AW) and they don't. LoH could do with being better, perhaps baselining imp LoH, but I personally have never felt limited. Just get a warrior to use imp intervene on you.

I prefer ardent defender to last stand. Maybe I'd make a bad warrior but the situations where I'd pop last stand are all situations where ardent defender would save me. Passively and with no cooldown.

There's no hard theorycraft yet ofc but looking at the stam:SD talent I'd say that paladins will not need to itemise for threat any more than warriors. However, when we actually want to build a max tps set we will be able to do so more easily than a warrior by using caster weapons, trinkets and so on. The very best of both worlds.

4% damage reduction is nice but it was never the real separator between tankadin and warrior damage intake. That was thunderclap and we are getting jclap. I have a feeling that the devs intend to take another pass at our holy shield/imp holy shield/redoubt setup (nerf inc!) but with the current beta talents we are blocking every hit and warriors are only blocking a few hits. This alone would surely close the gap.
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Re: "Paladins won't be great tanks"

Postby Gamingdevil » Sat Jul 19, 2008 2:19 am

Gideon wrote: but with the current beta talents we are blocking every hit and warriors are only blocking a few hits. This alone would surely close the gap.


Take a look at the warrior tree, SB CD is reduced by 10 seconds when talented. Meaning, they'll be even more uncrushable than we are, they just have to spend the 5 rage.
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Re: "Paladins won't be great tanks"

Postby orubim » Sat Jul 19, 2008 2:24 am

Gamingdevil wrote:
Gideon wrote: but with the current beta talents we are blocking every hit and warriors are only blocking a few hits. This alone would surely close the gap.


Take a look at the warrior tree, SB CD is reduced by 10 seconds when talented. Meaning, they'll be even more uncrushable than we are, they just have to spend the 5 rage.


It's going to be made baseline with a 30-second CD, so it's all good.
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Re: "Paladins won't be great tanks"

Postby Gideon » Sat Jul 19, 2008 2:26 am

Gamingdevil wrote:
Gideon wrote: but with the current beta talents we are blocking every hit and warriors are only blocking a few hits. This alone would surely close the gap.


Take a look at the warrior tree, SB CD is reduced by 10 seconds when talented. Meaning, they'll be even more uncrushable than we are, they just have to spend the 5 rage.


I looked.

Baseline shield block in WotLK
Improved shield block in WotLK

Warriors will not be able to make themselves uncrushable using shield block. So it's probably a good thing that the devs have said they're removing crushing blows from the game.
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Re: "Paladins won't be great tanks"

Postby Pizbit » Sat Jul 19, 2008 2:32 am

Gideon wrote:Warriors will not be able to make themselves uncrushable using shield block. So it's probably a good thing that the devs have said they're removing crushing blows from the game.



Just highlighting this for those who might skip over it and don't know yet.
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Postby Mehnalas » Sat Jul 19, 2008 3:13 am

With holy shield and a goodly amount of Block Value we may end up taking less damage in wotlk than warriors. Especially if you consider having a fury/arms warrior keep up demo shout on the target.
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Postby Falkman » Sat Jul 19, 2008 3:23 am

I'd say that as long as a paladin has the same amount of block value as a warrior he will always end up taking less damage (if the pure avoidance is similar) since the while the shield block of warriors will block more, it will only do so once every 10 secs, whereas we will block a lot more attacks, and two holy shield blocks equates the damage reduction from one shield block, and I often use up more than 2 charges in 10 sec.
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Postby Eaglestrike » Sat Jul 19, 2008 3:47 am

And warriors will also need to gear more towards Block Rating now, whereas we won't need to at all really and we can focus on dodge/parry/threat and can for the most part disregard block rating entirely. This allows us much greater variety in what we use to tank, much like the current advantage warriors have over us in BC.
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Postby Tradyk » Sat Jul 19, 2008 3:48 am

Eaglestrike wrote:And warriors will also need to gear more towards Block Rating now, whereas we won't need to at all really and we can focus on dodge/parry/threat and can for the most part disregard block rating entirely. This allows us much greater variety in what we use to tank, much like the current advantage warriors have over us in BC.


BV is going to be a threat stat.
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Postby Norrath » Sat Jul 19, 2008 3:48 am

Except there's also block chance to take into account, Falkman -- and Defensive stance.

The change currently means warriors will have one guaranteed block every 10 seconds. It doesn't mean they will only block once in that time.

It means that paladins will block more, yes -- but it doesn't automatically remove the differences, especially as paladins have more direct attacks (HotR, ShoR) in WotLK -- attacks that could be parryable. If they are, it'll shift the balance further. Currently all of a warrior's attacks (save Thunder Clap, which isn't used as a threat ability except in AE situations) are parryable, while only auto-attacks from paladins are. It still won't match up, but combined with the Defensive stance difference, it's far from certain that paladins will have better physical mitigation.

At a guess, I'd say warriors are somewhat ahead... but I also haven't looked in-depth at the warrior changes.
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