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All things related to the expansion

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Postby Yeti » Mon Jul 21, 2008 9:56 am

Wow, great discussion here. As always, this site will be my first resource for these decisions once the expansion arrives.

No matter what the changes to paladin mechanics, and tanking overall, I look forward to the continuing debate here.
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Postby Rich » Mon Jul 21, 2008 9:58 am

http://wotlk.wowhead.com/?talent=sVZV0tIx0zxrqeohoVfx

Holy (5 points)

5/5 Seals of the Pure

Protection (51 points)

5/5 Anticipation
5/5 Redoubt
1/1 Blessing of Kings
3/3 Improved Righteous Fury
3/3 Shield Specialization
5/5 Toughness
1/1 Blessing of Sanctuary
5/5 Reckoning
2/5 One-Handed Weapon Specialization
2/2 Improved Holy Shield
1/1 Holy Shield
5/5 Ardent Defender
5/5 Combat Expertise
3/3 Touched by the Light
1/1 Avenger's Shield
3/3 Shield of the Templar
1/1 Hammer of the Righteous

Retribution (15 points)

5/5 Benediction
2/2 Improved Judgements
3/3 Heart of the Crusader
5/5 Deflection



Thats what i'm currently leaning towards
Last edited by Rich on Mon Jul 21, 2008 10:38 am, edited 1 time in total.
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Postby Holyfuri » Mon Jul 21, 2008 10:15 am

Rich wrote:Holy (5 points)

5/5 Seals of the Pure

Protection (51 points)

5/5 Anticipation
5/5 Redoubt
1/1 Blessing of Kings
3/3 Improved Righteous Fury
3/3 Shield Specialization
5/5 Toughness
1/1 Blessing of Sanctuary
5/5 Reckoning
2/5 One-Handed Weapon Specialization
2/2 Improved Holy Shield
1/1 Holy Shield
5/5 Ardent Defender
5/5 Combat Expertise
3/3 Touched by the Light
1/1 Avenger's Shield
3/3 Shield of the Templar
1/1 Hammer of the Righteous

Retribution (15 points)

5/5 Benediction
2/2 Improved Judgements
3/3 Heart of the Crusader
5/5 Deflection



Thats what i'm currently leaning towards


one handed weapon spec is awesome though, I can't let myself go without it. Heart of the crusader? why exactly?
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Postby Rich » Mon Jul 21, 2008 10:34 am

Heart was more to help the raid DPS. Everyone getting 3% more crit should show up fairly good for the casters and rogues and enhancement shamans in my guild
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Postby moduspwnens » Mon Jul 21, 2008 10:37 am

Rich wrote:Heart was more to help the raid DPS. Everyone getting 3% more crit should show up fairly good for the casters and rogues and enhancement shamans in my guild


It may not matter if it doesn't stack. Has anyone in beta confirmed whether or not it does?
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Postby Hollyhell » Mon Jul 21, 2008 11:13 am

Dorvan wrote:
Hollyhell wrote:We're looking at 2 different sides of the same coin. Honestly, I would say that a single fight where you're taking a million dmg, your healers *probably* aren't going to notice much of a difference; the same could be said of if that's over a long period of time.

Like I said, it's kind of a tossup at this point.


No, it's really not. Individual tanking talents simply *don't* provide more than a 1-2% damage reduction per point....anywhere. That doesn't make them worthless, it means you want to take a lot of them to achieve an overall significant effect. Skipping Imp RF would be nothing short of foolish for any sort of progression tanking.


I disagree.

There are opinions on the same subject regarding spell warding and reckoning.

I would take it if there wasn't already so much bloat in the tree. I would take it if there weren't a couple other talents I'd like to have that I see as more necessary, given the buffs they received.
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Postby Obrimos » Mon Jul 21, 2008 11:21 am

Rich wrote:http://wotlk.wowhead.com/?talent=sVZV0tIx0zxrqeohoVfx

Holy (5 points)

5/5 Seals of the Pure

Protection (51 points)

5/5 Anticipation
5/5 Redoubt
1/1 Blessing of Kings
3/3 Improved Righteous Fury
3/3 Shield Specialization
5/5 Toughness
1/1 Blessing of Sanctuary
5/5 Reckoning
2/5 One-Handed Weapon Specialization
2/2 Improved Holy Shield
1/1 Holy Shield
5/5 Ardent Defender
5/5 Combat Expertise
3/3 Touched by the Light
1/1 Avenger's Shield
3/3 Shield of the Templar
1/1 Hammer of the Righteous

Retribution (15 points)

5/5 Benediction
2/2 Improved Judgements
3/3 Heart of the Crusader
5/5 Deflection



Thats what i'm currently leaning towards


Reckoning but only 2 in 1hSpec?

Isn't One Handed Specialization more threat per point due to its flat increase to all damage?
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Postby shifttusk » Mon Jul 21, 2008 11:32 am

I think everyone is also ignoring how good conviction will be for prot with all of the changes:

5% more crit on:
1) Judgements
2) New HoR on up to 3 targets
3) Holywrath on UD aoe
4) Avengers Shield
5) New Shield Slam
6) Heals when offhealing
7) Lol mele (hey it is something)

This is not to mention the fact that our judge crits are 2x base on the ptr. I'm looking for ways to take this talent it just looks like I'd have to give up divine guardian and obviously PoJ (qq)
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Postby moduspwnens » Mon Jul 21, 2008 12:19 pm

shifttusk wrote:I think everyone is also ignoring how good conviction will be for prot with all of the changes:

5% more crit on:
1) Judgements
2) New HoR on up to 3 targets
3) Holywrath on UD aoe
4) Avengers Shield
5) New Shield Slam
6) Heals when offhealing
7) Lol mele (hey it is something)

This is not to mention the fact that our judge crits are 2x base on the ptr. I'm looking for ways to take this talent it just looks like I'd have to give up divine guardian and obviously PoJ (qq)


I hadn't thought of that. Good input.
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Postby Caelia » Mon Jul 21, 2008 12:30 pm

Obrimos wrote:
Rich wrote:http://wotlk.wowhead.com/?talent=sVZV0tIx0zxrqeohoVfx

Holy (5 points)

5/5 Seals of the Pure

Protection (51 points)

5/5 Anticipation
5/5 Redoubt
1/1 Blessing of Kings
3/3 Improved Righteous Fury
3/3 Shield Specialization
5/5 Toughness
1/1 Blessing of Sanctuary
5/5 Reckoning
2/5 One-Handed Weapon Specialization
2/2 Improved Holy Shield
1/1 Holy Shield
5/5 Ardent Defender
5/5 Combat Expertise
3/3 Touched by the Light
1/1 Avenger's Shield
3/3 Shield of the Templar
1/1 Hammer of the Righteous

Retribution (15 points)

5/5 Benediction
2/2 Improved Judgements
3/3 Heart of the Crusader
5/5 Deflection



Thats what i'm currently leaning towards


Reckoning but only 2 in 1hSpec?

Isn't One Handed Specialization more threat per point due to its flat increase to all damage?

Yes it is.

moduspwnens wrote:
shifttusk wrote:I think everyone is also ignoring how good conviction will be for prot with all of the changes:

5% more crit on:
1) Judgements
2) New HoR on up to 3 targets
3) Holywrath on UD aoe
4) Avengers Shield
5) New Shield Slam
6) Heals when offhealing
7) Lol mele (hey it is something)

This is not to mention the fact that our judge crits are 2x base on the ptr. I'm looking for ways to take this talent it just looks like I'd have to give up divine guardian and obviously PoJ (qq)


I hadn't thought of that. Good input.

Yea, never thought of that also, but we rarely crit as it is, and having 5% more crit might not be that big of an impact for us when you could get like 5/5 seals of the pure for a flat 15% increase of damage on some seals.

The way i see it, taking imp judgement is now a waste of 2 talent points.

Basically we now have 2 more spells that take up the gcd.
    Shield of Righteousness
    Hammer of the Righteous

Basically making your judgements 8 seconds instead of 10 seconds is kind of pointless, you are going to get too many overlaps when its not needed and you can easily pick something else up.
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Postby Aerien » Mon Jul 21, 2008 12:39 pm

I think Blizzard wants us to have a little more control over the type of tanking we enjoy. The talents seem to be split more along the lines of "AOE Consecration Based Tanking" or "Single Target Shield of Righteousness Tanking".

Like alway, Blizzard doesn't want us to be pigeonheld and gives us talents that straddle both, just for random encounters that require our tanking style. But with all the new dailies, Blizz needs a money sink and I think spec changes are it. Here are some examples of WotLK talents/mechanics that are divided for specific purposes:

THE FOLLOWING IS FOR 10-MAN OR LOWER COMPARISONS:

AOE Tanking (more than 3 mobs):
NOTE: It's important to realize that the bulk of these are currently employed as our main BC Tanking Rotation and are dependent "solely" on Spell Damage for threat increase.

Consecration: Becomes viable to use under certain circumstances, ie. being hit hard by either a single or multiple mobs. However this truly shines with Guarded by the Light. Yet this mechanic reaches its full potential when tanking multiple mobs which increases your chances to successfully roll a dodge or parry while still blocking a great deal of damage. Plus it works for Holy Wrath.

Holy Shield: Once again this mechanic reaches its full potential if you are tanking multiple mobs or a single that attacks extremely fast. In addition it works if you stack a large amount of block and forego dodge and parry (which is not a maintank strategy). Improved Holy Shield pretty much reinfoces the argument by extending Holy Shield uptime for multiple mobs. If crushing blows are removed, Holy Shield might not be a required part of single target tanking rotations.

Touched by the Light: What do you do when your not tanking a million mobs? You HEAL!!!! I think being a judgment bot is now a role Blizzard delegated to Rets. This has great synergy with AOE tanking and Healing. Basically an OT talent that helps with threat; slightly for MTing (but not by as much).


Single/Few Mob Tanking (up to 3 mobs):
NOTE: Dependent on Strength/Weapon Damage

Shield of Righteousness: Single target threat that has extremely high potential. Its basically unmitigated Shield Slam without the fancy sparkle of dispel.

Hammer of the Righteous: Glorified Swipe. Basically allows a controlled small aoe tanking capability that is similar to the other classes without using Consecration and breaking CC. Easier on the mana and more spammable on single mobs.

Seal of Righteousness/Vengeance: According to the beta forum tests, this has received a boost in its AP coefficient. Not a spectacular boost, however a noticeable one.


RAID ENVIRONMENT COMPARISON:

Guarded by the Light: Really shines when your tanking slow, hard hitting mobs and your stacked for Avoidance. It decreases costs specifically for non-reactive skills for that extra boost to threat. One of which is Avenger's Shield which is now cut down to a .5 second cast (useable between boss swings).

Divine Strength: For raid bosses that hit hard, blocking is kinda meh, its basically just like adding a ton more armor, mitigating a normal swing...except with the perks of not being crushed. However, crushing blows are slowly being removed from the game (atleast what I hear on the forums /grainofsalt). By increasing strength, block value is upped and single target threat is upped. The former a boon to not receiving huge hits, but also allowing to take some damage. Increasing block value too high for AOE tanking--so that mob attacks don't hit you--is bad (well atleast for you mana pool).

Divine Guardian: Great for an encounter where you are not the only tank. This is great if your an OT and you need to absorb some damage. Coupled with Sacrifice and you got a portable shield wall on a specific target. This is also viable as an MT if the mob casts a channeled AOE or there is no threat table for the encounter (hopefully this is for trash mobs lol).

Judgement of the Just: If the mob is hitting you too hard for a normal 5 man, its not your talents...its your gear. This is for raids 10 and 25. Its got great potential if your boss tanking or not. As a trash tanker, your probably going to be healing for bosses. If your a boss tanker, your probably attempting to throw heals and keep this up (easier on the mana since youll have less spell dmg). However, it depends on if you wanna afk and autoswing/judge, heal, or both.


Finally....
To Devotion Aura or not?

I think this entirely depends on raid composition. If you have 4 pallies, then hell you can use a resist aura for all I care. For 3 pallies, this is where it gets interesting. If you have a ret, spec devo, its nice and you'll be getting those hawt ret-talented bonuses. If you have 2 other holy's, ask which sub-tree they went into. If they subbed in prot, you could probably ditch Divine Guardian also.

Sorry for the long post, but woooh I'm psyched for the expansion. Save up some gold cause I'll bet you'll be respeccing a bunch more!
Last edited by Aerien on Mon Jul 21, 2008 12:49 pm, edited 9 times in total.
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Postby shifttusk » Mon Jul 21, 2008 1:07 pm

Caelia wrote:
moduspwnens wrote:
shifttusk wrote:I think everyone is also ignoring how good conviction will be for prot with all of the changes:

5% more crit on:
1) Judgements
2) New HoR on up to 3 targets
3) Holywrath on UD aoe
4) Avengers Shield
5) New Shield Slam
6) Heals when offhealing
7) Lol mele (hey it is something)

This is not to mention the fact that our judge crits are 2x base on the ptr. I'm looking for ways to take this talent it just looks like I'd have to give up divine guardian and obviously PoJ (qq)


I hadn't thought of that. Good input.

Yea, never thought of that also, but we rarely crit as it is, and having 5% more crit might not be that big of an impact for us when you could get like 5/5 seals of the pure for a flat 15% increase of damage on some seals.

The way i see it, taking imp judgement is now a waste of 2 talent points.

Basically we now have 2 more spells that take up the gcd.
    Shield of Righteousness
    Hammer of the Righteous
Basically making your judgements 8 seconds instead of 10 seconds is kind of pointless, you are going to get too many overlaps when its not needed and you can easily pick something else up.


I'm sure once our new rotations are somewhat worked out we'll be able to math wether 5%increase on judge,mele,shieldslam,cleavething is more or less than 15% seal and judge dmg. My thinking is though that we'll see alot more SoW usage outside of 25 man raid bosses than before since we can make threat without needing the seal dmg. On a raid boss I think it will be very close though.

Wtb internet speculation maths pst!
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Postby Aerien » Mon Jul 21, 2008 1:23 pm

shifttusk wrote:
Caelia wrote:
moduspwnens wrote:
shifttusk wrote:I think everyone is also ignoring how good conviction will be for prot with all of the changes:

5% more crit on:
1) Judgements
2) New HoR on up to 3 targets
3) Holywrath on UD aoe
4) Avengers Shield
5) New Shield Slam
6) Heals when offhealing
7) Lol mele (hey it is something)

This is not to mention the fact that our judge crits are 2x base on the ptr. I'm looking for ways to take this talent it just looks like I'd have to give up divine guardian and obviously PoJ (qq)


I hadn't thought of that. Good input.

Yea, never thought of that also, but we rarely crit as it is, and having 5% more crit might not be that big of an impact for us when you could get like 5/5 seals of the pure for a flat 15% increase of damage on some seals.

The way i see it, taking imp judgement is now a waste of 2 talent points.

Basically we now have 2 more spells that take up the gcd.
    Shield of Righteousness
    Hammer of the Righteous
Basically making your judgements 8 seconds instead of 10 seconds is kind of pointless, you are going to get too many overlaps when its not needed and you can easily pick something else up.


I'm sure once our new rotations are somewhat worked out we'll be able to math wether 5%increase on judge,mele,shieldslam,cleavething is more or less than 15% seal and judge dmg. My thinking is though that we'll see alot more SoW usage outside of 25 man raid bosses than before since we can make threat without needing the seal dmg. On a raid boss I think it will be very close though.

Wtb internet speculation maths pst!


Going 3 tiers deep into ret and spending 5 points sounds like your going to be stretchin yourself, especially with the talent bloat.
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Postby Songblade » Mon Jul 21, 2008 1:39 pm

What people don't seem to understand is that more than likely, mana is going to scale very highly in the expansion, just as it did in BC. With spells costing around 2.5x to cast, and pally heals costing up to 2.5k mana, I really don't see why they would leave it to where holy pallies have only 5-6 casts of it before they run outta mana (assuming no crit). Likewise, damage intake will increase a lot, so the cost of consecration will likely be comparable to how it is now.
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Postby Hollyhell » Mon Jul 21, 2008 1:54 pm

Songblade wrote:What people don't seem to understand is that more than likely, mana is going to scale very highly in the expansion, just as it did in BC. With spells costing around 2.5x to cast, and pally heals costing up to 2.5k mana, I really don't see why they would leave it to where holy pallies have only 5-6 casts of it before they run outta mana (assuming no crit). Likewise, damage intake will increase a lot, so the cost of consecration will likely be comparable to how it is now.


You're also forgetting talents, that pallys are either NOT going to spec into 51 point holy (the talked about spec so far is 48/0/23), or if they spec into it, it will be used sparingly.

Blizzard has already stated that the gear jump is not going to be near the way it was for BC. There will be some, but not such a large amount.
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