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0/59/12 New Cookie Cutter Wrath MT Build

All things related to the expansion

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Postby QuantumDelta » Sat Jul 19, 2008 11:48 am

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Postby DeadlyRabbit » Sat Jul 19, 2008 11:59 am

That "required" list, it is a "I want" list, there is a difference between wanting a $500,000 car and requiring a $5000 car to get around.
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Postby QuantumDelta » Sat Jul 19, 2008 12:11 pm

Lets see:

15% (DMG)Threat Generation from Seals and Judgements - Required.
15% Extra Strength (2 STR -> 1bV) - Required.
5% Dodge - Required.
Redoubt (arguably not itself required but leads to SS) - Required.
30% additional block value (global includes bv from str) - Required.
10% armour - Required.
Blessing of Kings (Holy pallys wont be entering the protection tree anymore and retri pallys have no use past 5points so if you don't get it no one will) - Required.
6% Mitigation - Required.
Raid-Wide-Mini-Shield-Wall - Required.
Imp Devo Aura (If you don't get it no one will) - Extra Mitigation and Extra Healing - Required.
Reckoning (Arguably it's usefulness fades for later content when your avoidance will be significantly improved, but for the initial - probably two 25 mans, it'll be an amazing threat talent) - Required.
4% Spell Mitigation - Required.
Blessing of Sanctuary (arguably less useful but required for HS) - Required.
6% extra Sta (+ 60 Sec reduction on mini shield wall)- Required.
5% (DMG) Threat - Required.
Holy Shield - Required.
Imp Holy Shield - Required.
Argent Defender - Required. (You could probably live without it but honestly it's irresponsible not to have it in your build for most content)
Combat Expertise (5 ExpR + 10% Sta) - Required.
Avenger Shield - Required.
Regular 50% mana efficiency gains on major threat generating abilities - Required.
30% Sta -> Spell Power - Required.
Imp HS, ShoR and AS (Both Mana eff. and threat) - Required.
HotR - Required.
15% Seal/Judgement mana eff. - Required.
5% Parry - Required.
2 Second Judgement CD reduction - Required.

There are some superfluous talents in Retri I didn't include but they are also somewhat beneficial.
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Postby Tiandelin » Sat Jul 19, 2008 12:37 pm

I'd hardly say that all of those are "required". Certainly they are "nice to have", but 5/5 Divine Strength and 5/5 Seals of the Pure? Unless we start stacking massive amounts of strength, even with a 2 to 1 conversion on block rating, I doubt that the former would be worth it. As for the latter, the two extra attacks we're getting mean that seals and judgements will make up even less of our threat than before, so the value of SotP is questionable.

Reckoning certainly isn't required either. Again, it's just "nice to have". Improved Judgement is another non-required talent. It's harder to make the case for most of what's left, but that's already 17 points off the "required" list.

As for holy paladins not going into prot... if it's really that lopsided in favor of holy/ret, you can be sure that something is going to get nerfed. At the least, I expect that Conviction will be changed to damaging spells only, and Sheath of Light might suffer too. And at least one of our paladins is excited about Beacon of Light, though even he laments that he can't get both Sheath and it.

Make no mistake, I'd like to see things slimmed down even further. However, saying that every talent that could possibly be useful for tanking is required borders on silly.
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Postby Airanna » Sat Jul 19, 2008 12:46 pm

To be quite honest, as tanks we DON'T want Imp Judgement anymore. Why you ask? Because with Holy Shield and Consecrate on an 8 second cooldown, and HotR and Shield of Righteousness on 6 second cooldowns, we're better off with a 10 second Judgement cooldown. Yes, Benediction and Deflection are nice, I wouldn't call either required anymore but nice, yes.

Blessing of Kings and Spell Warding have been and always will be optional. And 4/5 Reckoning seems like a bit of a dip too deep, I don't even know if i'll be picking it up at all in my build. You want 'have to have them with no option' talents, this is what you get

http://wotlk.wowhead.com/?talent=sZV0xIxczMgqeRGo

Still a bit heavy at 57 points, but it gives us all 14 points to toss around and there is still testing to be done to see if some of those are worthwhile (I have my doubts about Guarded by the Light)
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Postby Soltyr » Sat Jul 19, 2008 12:52 pm

QuantumDelta wrote:15% Seal/Judgement mana eff. - Required.
5% Parry - Required.
2 Second Judgement CD reduction - Required.

There are some superfluous talents in Retri I didn't include but they are also somewhat beneficial.


As said, I don't agree fully on ret tree as "required".
In Wotlk we will have other tanking moves (HotR, ShieldorfR and maybe Avenger's Shield) plus a changed jud system (if confirmed).

So, I'm not sure that 15% mana eff. is going to give us so huge benefit now, as well as 2 sec ImpJud. The prot tree got buffed with another 2-3% more avoidance (by the replacement of def->dodge) and this give us a bit more breath from 5% parry (if tanking plate will be focused on dodge/parry too).


Regarding Spell Warding, maybe it will be more a 10men oriented talent, assuming in a 25men you will want a DK to tank the stressful magic boss.
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Postby aznthecapn » Sat Jul 19, 2008 12:58 pm

I like

http://wotlk.wowhead.com/?talent=sZV0tIgczMgqeoGoV0x0h
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Postby DeadlyRabbit » Sat Jul 19, 2008 1:12 pm

QuantumDelta wrote:Lets see:

15% (DMG)Threat Generation from Seals and Judgements - Required.
15% Extra Strength (2 STR -> 1bV) - Required.
5% Dodge - Required.
Redoubt (arguably not itself required but leads to SS) - Required.
30% additional block value (global includes bv from str) - Required.
10% armour - Required.
Blessing of Kings (Holy pallys wont be entering the protection tree anymore and retri pallys have no use past 5points so if you don't get it no one will) - Required.
6% Mitigation - Required.
Raid-Wide-Mini-Shield-Wall - Required.
Imp Devo Aura (If you don't get it no one will) - Extra Mitigation and Extra Healing - Required.
Reckoning (Arguably it's usefulness fades for later content when your avoidance will be significantly improved, but for the initial - probably two 25 mans, it'll be an amazing threat talent) - Required.
4% Spell Mitigation - Required.
Blessing of Sanctuary (arguably less useful but required for HS) - Required.
6% extra Sta (+ 60 Sec reduction on mini shield wall)- Required.
5% (DMG) Threat - Required.
Holy Shield - Required.
Imp Holy Shield - Required.
Argent Defender - Required. (You could probably live without it but honestly it's irresponsible not to have it in your build for most content)
Combat Expertise (5 ExpR + 10% Sta) - Required.
Avenger Shield - Required.
Regular 50% mana efficiency gains on major threat generating abilities - Required.
30% Sta -> Spell Power - Required.
Imp HS, ShoR and AS (Both Mana eff. and threat) - Required.
HotR - Required.
15% Seal/Judgement mana eff. - Required.
5% Parry - Required.
2 Second Judgement CD reduction - Required.

There are some superfluous talents in Retri I didn't include but they are also somewhat beneficial.


This has to be troll post, it even becomes more obvious when you see things like "2 second judgement CD reductions - required" when there are going to be more threat building abilities in the rotation anyways.

We don't even know how much of our threat will be generated through seals and judgements to even worry if 15% more damage from them will translate into. I checked some of my webstats and depending on the fight seals and judgements can be as low as 6% to as high as 25% of my damage so at max that talent would improve overall threat by approx 3.75%, which is big right now, but we are being given a shield slam ability that has a 6 second cast time that does a high amount of threat which will change things when WotLK is live.

A lot of people aren't even using ardent defender right now, and that is for T6 and Sunwell tanks and it isn't hindering them.

This is also a beta build, we are speculating about a lot of things and saying we "require" all these abilities show a very limited vision. We had things change a lot ever after TBC went live for palys, so just calm down about what beta info shows us.


edit: saw something that people are estimating with level 70 block values Shield of Righteousness could do 2000 damage non crit every 6 seconds, which is just a number that I don't take serious but the potential of the ability to make our rotation consist of Holy Shield, consecrate, Shield of Righteousness and with judgements being tossed in when convenient.
Last edited by DeadlyRabbit on Sat Jul 19, 2008 1:19 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Postby Obrimos » Sat Jul 19, 2008 1:16 pm

Meh, based on what I've seen, 15% strength looks like it'll be a great addition to our threat abilities. I'm foreseeing Strength being on all the tanking plate from now on.

So, my build'll probably be http://wotlk.wowhead.com/?talent=sZE0tIgcdMgoeRGoV0L .
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Postby Dorvan » Sat Jul 19, 2008 1:17 pm

Beneficial != required

There are a lot of good talents in there, but the number of required ones isn't nearly what you laid out Quantum.
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Postby jere » Sat Jul 19, 2008 1:22 pm

If I had to guess, I would say the cookie cutter base would be a 0/51/10 build:
http://wotlk.wowhead.com/?talent=sZV0tIxczMgoeoGoV0x

With the last 10 points going where ever. There are a couple points in there that could be moved around of course, but this was just an example.
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Postby QuantumDelta » Sat Jul 19, 2008 1:27 pm

Troll?
Shame on you for being a Paladin and not knowing who I am.

A few notes for the slow people:

Judgement is NOT on GCD.
Seals are currently not being consumed by Judgement - Judgement will not effect your rotation, infact the shorter the cooldown, the better.

Tiandelin: We wont be using anything other than the generic tanking plate which will be the only tanking plate available, in WOTLK.
Generic tanking plate has a tendancy to occasionally drop points into STR/AGI (less commonly AGI these days) in order to not make it so weighted on item budget into two or three stats (gaining you more effective-ipoints for the item), so expect some - you might not be swimming in it, but that's part of the reason the talent will help, ATM you might actually get (based on warrior STR levels) a very similar amount of bV outta that talent as you would SS, and they stack, SS gains off the extra STR.

Mana costs in WOTLK ATM are astronimical, most classes have had their abilities see a flat *2.5 modifier slapped on their max rank spells compared to TBC.
Anything you can get mana efficiency wise, you will want to take it, I'm so concerned at the moment about our mana consumption compared to mana generation from heals as to call us non-viable unless boss damage nearly doubles (tell that to brutallus).

As much as I never depend on AD, it has saved me many hundreds of times, it is unsung but until you get something to parse it you never really realise how much it helps you.
Even in sunwell it's an excellent talent on all fights bar Brutallus really.

Reckoning - as the people who DIDN'T skip a shite load of content and did compete with other guilds world wide on progression will tell you that in even so far as SSC until your gear was really up to scratch avoidance wise, was an excellent talent, it was only beyond the very end of T4 content that it became redundant due to low uptime.
And in sunwell again it's a useful talent.

I'd further like to note that - The more avoidance you have, the more powerful the next piece of avoidance becomes.
Parry is excruciatingly expensive at current (and will be even more expensive in WOTLK) and is well worth 5 points for 5%.

SW I can agree to a point that it's not going to be as useful but when you think of fights in most levels of content there are plenty of sources of magical damage - from Brutallus' Meteor slash to M'uru's casters and shadow minions of much aoeyness (and I wont even start on the list for KJ :P).

But the rest? eh you're crazy if you don't recognise how valuable each of those talents are and lament ever surrendering any of them.
Edit:

I'm not sure what you're expecting Dorvan, but honestly, at this point we wont be using consecration AT ALL (bar aoe tanking) unless Guarded by the light procs.

the other classes are worried about the mana hikes and trying to think of ways around it regen or itemisation style.

We don't have either of those choices.
Consecration is going to cost close to 20% of our mana pool.
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Re: 0/59/12 New Cookie Cutter Wrath MT Build

Postby Lightbeard » Sat Jul 19, 2008 2:06 pm

Songblade wrote:
Lightbeard wrote:0/57/14 The New MT Build
This pretty much a 0/49/12 build with 10 extra talents added for the new stuff.

Advantages:
-Keeps all the old talents and grabs the new goodies
-Gains Hammer of righteous
-Guarded by Light
-Shield of the Templar
-Touched by the Light
-and Judgment of the Just
-Possible off dpser with the changes

Disadvantages:
-Not much hybrid left; healing

http://wotlk.wowhead.com/?talent=sZV0tIg0zMgqeRGoVox0h


Fixed



No imp devo?
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Postby unlimit » Sat Jul 19, 2008 2:15 pm

http://wotlk.wowhead.com/?talent=sZV0tIxczggqeoGoV0x

Is what I'll be running with at 80, Reckoning / Seals of the Pure will probably be switched a lot depending on content and how often we will be getting hit?
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Postby Dorvan » Sat Jul 19, 2008 3:39 pm

Again Quantum, I don't disagree that all of the talent you listed are useful. However, "required" means "you will be a gimp tank if you don't get this talent". A number of talents you've listed are beneficial, but hardly required. For example....Seals of the Pure. How have we managed to survive all of TBC without this "required" talent? Answer: because while it's a nice threat boost, it's not essential.

Reck, Divine Guidance, Spell Warding, Imp Judgment, Divine Strength -- these all fall in that same category: certainly useful talents, but hardly gimping a Tankadin not to have them.

Until we've had a chance to play around with this stuff in Beta it won't be completely clear which are the best talents, but the assertion "if you don't have all of these talents you'll fail as a tank" doesn't ring true.
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