0/59/12 New Cookie Cutter Wrath MT Build

All things related to the expansion

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Postby Stings » Sat Jul 19, 2008 3:07 am

DJSticky wrote:5/55/11 imo
http://wotlk.wowhead.com/?talent=sVZV0xIxczMgqeoGoxox

DG = Worthless in my eyes
Guarded By the LIght = Slightly less worthless but still not worth the talent points.

And yea I take Imp might over Beni in all my current builds.

Perhaps 0/2 Imp judge and 1 point in reck.


During pvp season 2 i bought a Merciless Slicer and tested SoB tanking. I found out that i made more threat from autoattack using SoB than i did with spelldmg mace and SoR autoattacks. So if we are going to use warrior weapons im deffinetly going to test whether this is still true. It will free up those 5 points in holy :)
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Postby Worldie » Sat Jul 19, 2008 5:23 am

Since blizz said that they are designing 25 men around 3 tanks, Divine Guardian looks like a must have to me. Plus it might be useful eventually in 10 men in fights where there's some damage on the raid for some reason and you might want to reduce it (Shade of Aran?)
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Re: 0/59/12 New Cookie Cutter Wrath MT Build

Postby Songblade » Sat Jul 19, 2008 6:07 am

Lightbeard wrote:0/57/14 The New MT Build
This pretty much a 0/49/12 build with 10 extra talents added for the new stuff.

Advantages:
-Keeps all the old talents and grabs the new goodies
-Gains Hammer of righteous
-Guarded by Light
-Shield of the Templar
-Touched by the Light
-and Judgment of the Just
-Possible off dpser with the changes

Disadvantages:
-Not much hybrid left; healing

http://wotlk.wowhead.com/?talent=sZV0tIg0zMgqeRGoVox0h


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Postby Soltyr » Sat Jul 19, 2008 6:39 am

There are a few thing I'm thinking now:

- Are holy paladin going to consider speccing so in deep in prot?
Considering first two tiers are not so appealing and someone is looking also for a possible Sheath build.

- Aura. If the aura is raid now and let's assume we have 3 paladins (ret/prot/holy), Prot will use Devo for sure, so don't spec in ImpDevo sounds silly.

- More than TBC, Parry becomes even more expensive now with so many new talents (always 10 talents point to reach it), we have already an easy 5% dodge in our tree.

- Are we sure 15% more str will be so useless?

Personally, I'm valuing a possible 05/66/00 build or a 12/49/00 build, coming back to join a full Reckoning and ImpLoH. Also some talents got changed from chance to resist to less duration: stoicism now is 30% less duration on all stun effects.
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Postby Neara » Sat Jul 19, 2008 7:32 am

Are holy paladin going to consider speccing so in deep in prot?


probably .. divine guardian is even better for a holy paladin than for a prot imho. 51/20 seems to be nice for a holy. And at least in my raid the Holy pallies have different builds for different jobs/blessings BoM/BoW/Devo Aura/Conc Aura etc.


I'll go for http://wotlk.wowhead.com/?talent=sVZV0xIg0zrgqeoGoV0x
Depending on Mana/Survivability/Threat-issues i'll respecc, can't tell what i'll really need just by looking at the talents. So that's what i start with and the fine-tuning comes with experience at lvl 80.
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Postby jere » Sat Jul 19, 2008 7:38 am

Worldie wrote:Plus it might be useful eventually in 10 men in fights where there's some damage on the raid for some reason and you might want to reduce it (Shade of Aran?)


Aren't 10 mans being designed around 1 tank? Unless they have changed DS at all, wouldn't using it cause the boss to switch targets while you have it up (well in most cases. Obviously, there is the shade of aran)? I might have missed the note where that was changed though.

I could see its use in in 25 mans though. I am just not sure I have the points.
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Postby Soltyr » Sat Jul 19, 2008 8:09 am

jere wrote:
Worldie wrote:Plus it might be useful eventually in 10 men in fights where there's some damage on the raid for some reason and you might want to reduce it (Shade of Aran?)


Aren't 10 mans being designed around 1 tank? Unless they have changed DS at all, wouldn't using it cause the boss to switch targets while you have it up (well in most cases. Obviously, there is the shade of aran)? I might have missed the note where that was changed though.

I could see its use in in 25 mans though. I am just not sure I have the points.


Also if it will not get a change, it depends from how the encounters are designed. There are many examples where I'd use Divine Guardian Bubble: Zul'jin eagle phase, Akil'zon Electrical Storm, Netherspite, Shade of Aran...
Even encounters designed like Magister, 3 over 4 boss's I use the bubble.
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Postby Jonlo » Sat Jul 19, 2008 8:29 am

jere wrote:
Worldie wrote:Plus it might be useful eventually in 10 men in fights where there's some damage on the raid for some reason and you might want to reduce it (Shade of Aran?)


Aren't 10 mans being designed around 1 tank? Unless they have changed DS at all, wouldn't using it cause the boss to switch targets while you have it up (well in most cases. Obviously, there is the shade of aran)? I might have missed the note where that was changed though.

I could see its use in in 25 mans though. I am just not sure I have the points.


Bosses where a main tank can use Divine Guardian in the normal course of a fight in all of WoW Classic and TBC (pretend that it isn't farm content) :

Ragnaros is a start, Sons of Rag can do some mean things to casters, and 30% less damage means they can probably be raid healed very easily
Vaelestrasz if you're not the first tank
Broodlord, if you've lost aggro to another tank (It happened at 60, remember)
Flamegor as a buffet tank
Panther Boss in ZG while she's vanished
Battleguard Sartura during Whirlwinds
Princess Huhuran (You better believe DG would have been awesome on this fight)
C'thun P1
Noth the Plaguebringer when he's summoning skeletons
Heigan the Unclean during the DDR phase


TBC:

Big Bad Wolf Opera event (save some idiot mage who can't run a circle)
Shade of Aran
Netherspite
Bloodboil
RoS P2
Mother Sharaz if you're an OT
Illidari Council if you're the rogue tank and he's vanished
Illidan when he's in Demon form for Flame Burst
Kalecgos if you're not tanking at that moment
Brutallus, same reason
M'uru if you're not tanking Entropius

That's alot of fights and alot of mitigated damage. And there's still WotLK to come.
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Postby DeadlyRabbit » Sat Jul 19, 2008 8:58 am

Divine Guardian seems very useful to me, any fight that I wouldn't be MT I am sure I would be using it, even in fights with adds I am sure there would be times that it could be worked in.

A fight like Naj'entus where there is 1 tank and I just heal it would work out great, I could have people with lower HP stand near me and then toss up Divine shield right before Tidal shield is broken. I am sure there will be lots of uses for it in raiding, not much in 5 mans, maybe a couple of times in 10 mans, but in 25 mans it will be worth the 2 points.
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Postby Galiant » Sat Jul 19, 2008 9:00 am

Man oh man, I've been twisting and turning in my sleep since I saw those new talents.

Finally, I've decided that I'll go with the 0/61/10 build, because - as someone here so kindly pointed out - we will have a lot more buttons to press and those 2 seconds off a judgement may not be needed as much.

If only the final talent in Prot could be used with any melee weapon, then grinding caster mobs might not have been so bad anymore. We'll see how that turns out, I suppose.

Overall, I'm very excited with these changes. I'm looking forward to see what else they can come up with during the Beta.

EDIT: PvE Ret was not an issue at all, I found a build I'd want to use as soon as I saw the new talents.
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Postby jere » Sat Jul 19, 2008 9:28 am

Jonlo wrote:
jere wrote:
Worldie wrote:Plus it might be useful eventually in 10 men in fights where there's some damage on the raid for some reason and you might want to reduce it (Shade of Aran?)


Aren't 10 mans being designed around 1 tank? Unless they have changed DS at all, wouldn't using it cause the boss to switch targets while you have it up (well in most cases. Obviously, there is the shade of aran)? I might have missed the note where that was changed though.

I could see its use in in 25 mans though. I am just not sure I have the points.


Bosses where a main tank can use Divine Guardian in the normal course of a fight in all of WoW Classic and TBC (pretend that it isn't farm content) :

Ragnaros is a start, Sons of Rag can do some mean things to casters, and 30% less damage means they can probably be raid healed very easily
Vaelestrasz if you're not the first tank
Broodlord, if you've lost aggro to another tank (It happened at 60, remember)
Flamegor as a buffet tank
Panther Boss in ZG while she's vanished
Battleguard Sartura during Whirlwinds
Princess Huhuran (You better believe DG would have been awesome on this fight)
C'thun P1
Noth the Plaguebringer when he's summoning skeletons
Heigan the Unclean during the DDR phase


TBC:

Big Bad Wolf Opera event (save some idiot mage who can't run a circle)
Shade of Aran
Netherspite
Bloodboil
RoS P2
Mother Sharaz if you're an OT
Illidari Council if you're the rogue tank and he's vanished
Illidan when he's in Demon form for Flame Burst
Kalecgos if you're not tanking at that moment
Brutallus, same reason
M'uru if you're not tanking Entropius

That's alot of fights and alot of mitigated damage. And there's still WotLK to come.


And all of those are 10 man's designed for one tank?

I am not saying it won't have uses, but that I see it shining in 25 mans more than 10 (with obvious exceptions). The shade of aran fight is a good example of where it would be good in a 10 man. Zuljin phase 3 is another. The eagle boss storms isn't really since the damage output really isn't anything to even consider during the storm if everyone is under the storm. Now if people aren't where they are supposed to be, it would be nice, but that should rarely be the case or you have bigger problems.

It will depend on how they design the 10 mans. If they give fights like Shade of the Aran where the tank doesn't have aggro for a period of time anyways AND the damage is worth using it, then that will be great.

On a side note, it would be great for the lynx boss if you are OT. Bubble to negate saberlash on yourself, reduce tank damage, and reduce raid damage from totems. Again, though, that is a two tank fight, which isn't supposed to be the norm in wotlk.
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Postby Dorvan » Sat Jul 19, 2008 9:52 am

Neara wrote:
Are holy paladin going to consider speccing so in deep in prot?


probably .. divine guardian is even better for a holy paladin than for a prot imho. 51/20 seems to be nice for a holy. And at least in my raid the Holy pallies have different builds for different jobs/blessings BoM/BoW/Devo Aura/Conc Aura etc.


I'll go for http://wotlk.wowhead.com/?talent=sVZV0xIg0zrgqeoGoV0x
Depending on Mana/Survivability/Threat-issues i'll respecc, can't tell what i'll really need just by looking at the talents. So that's what i start with and the fine-tuning comes with experience at lvl 80.


You missed the fact the Conviction is now 5% crit to all melee and spells. 15 Ret is now PvE cookie cutter for holy as far as I can tell. (Plus Heart of the Crusader is nice combined with 30 yard Judgements).
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Postby Acedonte » Sat Jul 19, 2008 10:14 am

DG is one of many changes, imo, to make us better offtanks. Ex: In an FLK style fight, we can tank our add, then go OT, maintaining a mana pool with the new HoSac (how I see it being used) and when the enrage hits (progression fight, or just a bad night), we hit DS and sorta shield wall the whole raid.

Course, this all depends on fight mechanics and your role in the raid. If you're always tanking something, then yeah, bad talent. However, there's probably going to be fights where some tanks are not actively tanking 100% of the time, and this helps us fill that role.

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Postby moduspwnens » Sat Jul 19, 2008 10:33 am

I'm hoping for all encounters to be Illidari council style, with all tanks having a target and crazy stuff going on all the time.
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Postby Jonlo » Sat Jul 19, 2008 11:27 am

jere wrote:
Jonlo wrote:
jere wrote:
Worldie wrote:Plus it might be useful eventually in 10 men in fights where there's some damage on the raid for some reason and you might want to reduce it (Shade of Aran?)


Aren't 10 mans being designed around 1 tank? Unless they have changed DS at all, wouldn't using it cause the boss to switch targets while you have it up (well in most cases. Obviously, there is the shade of aran)? I might have missed the note where that was changed though.

I could see its use in in 25 mans though. I am just not sure I have the points.


Bosses where a main tank can use Divine Guardian in the normal course of a fight in all of WoW Classic and TBC (pretend that it isn't farm content) :

Ragnaros is a start, Sons of Rag can do some mean things to casters, and 30% less damage means they can probably be raid healed very easily
Vaelestrasz if you're not the first tank
Broodlord, if you've lost aggro to another tank (It happened at 60, remember)
Flamegor as a buffet tank
Panther Boss in ZG while she's vanished
Battleguard Sartura during Whirlwinds
Princess Huhuran (You better believe DG would have been awesome on this fight)
C'thun P1
Noth the Plaguebringer when he's summoning skeletons
Heigan the Unclean during the DDR phase


TBC:

Big Bad Wolf Opera event (save some idiot mage who can't run a circle)
Shade of Aran
Netherspite
Bloodboil
RoS P2
Mother Sharaz if you're an OT
Illidari Council if you're the rogue tank and he's vanished
Illidan when he's in Demon form for Flame Burst
Kalecgos if you're not tanking at that moment
Brutallus, same reason
M'uru if you're not tanking Entropius

That's alot of fights and alot of mitigated damage. And there's still WotLK to come.


And all of those are 10 man's designed for one tank?

I am not saying it won't have uses, but that I see it shining in 25 mans more than 10 (with obvious exceptions). The shade of aran fight is a good example of where it would be good in a 10 man. Zuljin phase 3 is another. The eagle boss storms isn't really since the damage output really isn't anything to even consider during the storm if everyone is under the storm. Now if people aren't where they are supposed to be, it would be nice, but that should rarely be the case or you have bigger problems.

It will depend on how they design the 10 mans. If they give fights like Shade of the Aran where the tank doesn't have aggro for a period of time anyways AND the damage is worth using it, then that will be great.

On a side note, it would be great for the lynx boss if you are OT. Bubble to negate saberlash on yourself, reduce tank damage, and reduce raid damage from totems. Again, though, that is a two tank fight, which isn't supposed to be the norm in wotlk.


Forgot to add Zul'Jin and Hex Lord Malacrass. So that's several bosses in 10 mans. But use Bloodboil in 25 mans and scale it back to 10 mans as an example:

Fel Enrage+Bloodboil healing=tricky, you're not tanking at that point, so DS to erase a stack of Acidic wounds, and lighten the healing load.

Think of more fights where you might not be tanking cause a healer is under attack, in WotLK as raid bosses aren't known yet.
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