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Postby shifttusk » Mon Jul 21, 2008 1:57 pm

Aerien wrote:
shifttusk wrote:
Caelia wrote:
moduspwnens wrote:
shifttusk wrote:I think everyone is also ignoring how good conviction will be for prot with all of the changes:

5% more crit on:
1) Judgements
2) New HoR on up to 3 targets
3) Holywrath on UD aoe
4) Avengers Shield
5) New Shield Slam
6) Heals when offhealing
7) Lol mele (hey it is something)

This is not to mention the fact that our judge crits are 2x base on the ptr. I'm looking for ways to take this talent it just looks like I'd have to give up divine guardian and obviously PoJ (qq)


I hadn't thought of that. Good input.

Yea, never thought of that also, but we rarely crit as it is, and having 5% more crit might not be that big of an impact for us when you could get like 5/5 seals of the pure for a flat 15% increase of damage on some seals.

The way i see it, taking imp judgement is now a waste of 2 talent points.

Basically we now have 2 more spells that take up the gcd.
    Shield of Righteousness
    Hammer of the Righteous
Basically making your judgements 8 seconds instead of 10 seconds is kind of pointless, you are going to get too many overlaps when its not needed and you can easily pick something else up.


I'm sure once our new rotations are somewhat worked out we'll be able to math wether 5%increase on judge,mele,shieldslam,cleavething is more or less than 15% seal and judge dmg. My thinking is though that we'll see alot more SoW usage outside of 25 man raid bosses than before since we can make threat without needing the seal dmg. On a raid boss I think it will be very close though.

Wtb internet speculation maths pst!


Going 3 tiers deep into ret and spending 5 points sounds like your going to be stretchin yourself, especially with the talent bloat.


Mainly just no devine guardian or guarded by the light. DG strikes me as needed though which is a pain :/
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Postby shifttusk » Mon Jul 21, 2008 1:57 pm

Aerien wrote:
shifttusk wrote:
Caelia wrote:
moduspwnens wrote:
shifttusk wrote:I think everyone is also ignoring how good conviction will be for prot with all of the changes:

5% more crit on:
1) Judgements
2) New HoR on up to 3 targets
3) Holywrath on UD aoe
4) Avengers Shield
5) New Shield Slam
6) Heals when offhealing
7) Lol mele (hey it is something)

This is not to mention the fact that our judge crits are 2x base on the ptr. I'm looking for ways to take this talent it just looks like I'd have to give up divine guardian and obviously PoJ (qq)


I hadn't thought of that. Good input.

Yea, never thought of that also, but we rarely crit as it is, and having 5% more crit might not be that big of an impact for us when you could get like 5/5 seals of the pure for a flat 15% increase of damage on some seals.

The way i see it, taking imp judgement is now a waste of 2 talent points.

Basically we now have 2 more spells that take up the gcd.
    Shield of Righteousness
    Hammer of the Righteous
Basically making your judgements 8 seconds instead of 10 seconds is kind of pointless, you are going to get too many overlaps when its not needed and you can easily pick something else up.


I'm sure once our new rotations are somewhat worked out we'll be able to math wether 5%increase on judge,mele,shieldslam,cleavething is more or less than 15% seal and judge dmg. My thinking is though that we'll see alot more SoW usage outside of 25 man raid bosses than before since we can make threat without needing the seal dmg. On a raid boss I think it will be very close though.

Wtb internet speculation maths pst!


Going 3 tiers deep into ret and spending 5 points sounds like your going to be stretchin yourself, especially with the talent bloat.


Mainly just no devine guardian or guarded by the light. DG strikes me as needed though which is a pain :/
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Postby bjanssen » Mon Jul 21, 2008 2:23 pm

Aerien wrote:I think Blizzard wants us to have a little more control over the type of tanking we enjoy. snip


Except that you can't get the talents you need for the multiple roles into one build.

So the question becomes

Does Blizzard expect pally tanks to respec depending on the instance?

Or are we expected to level another pally tank so we can swap between the subspecialisations?

Or just roll a death knight/warrior?

Or step aside for a "real tank"?

I'm not QQing just not sure that the way the tree is set up now that it's possible for one spec to be viable/optimal for single target raid tanking AND high threat aoe tanking.

Personally I'd like to see just a few less points required in the prot tree to allow 15 points in either holy or ret. That way you'd get differences between tanks yet still have the pally tank viable for their main role(s).

BTW looking at ret and knowing that in my guild we only run with one tank Heart of the crusader and conviction look very tasty. But as the MT for our small guild I know my real job is to spend the points in the prot tree only :(.

As a result I think this would have to be my core build 60/10 http://wotlk.wowhead.com/?talent=sZV0tIgczrgqeoGoV0x
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Postby Songblade » Mon Jul 21, 2008 2:38 pm

Hollyhell wrote:
Songblade wrote:What people don't seem to understand is that more than likely, mana is going to scale very highly in the expansion, just as it did in BC. With spells costing around 2.5x to cast, and pally heals costing up to 2.5k mana, I really don't see why they would leave it to where holy pallies have only 5-6 casts of it before they run outta mana (assuming no crit). Likewise, damage intake will increase a lot, so the cost of consecration will likely be comparable to how it is now.


You're also forgetting talents, that pallys are either NOT going to spec into 51 point holy (the talked about spec so far is 48/0/23), or if they spec into it, it will be used sparingly.

Blizzard has already stated that the gear jump is not going to be near the way it was for BC. There will be some, but not such a large amount.


Actually, I didn't really say anything about Beacon of Light.

But Holy Light, I hear, costs about that much.

bjanssen wrote:
Aerien wrote:I think Blizzard wants us to have a little more control over the type of tanking we enjoy. snip


Except that you can't get the talents you need for the multiple roles into one build.

So the question becomes

Does Blizzard expect pally tanks to respec depending on the instance?

Or are we expected to level another pally tank so we can swap between the subspecialisations?

Or just roll a death knight/warrior?

Or step aside for a "real tank"?

I'm not QQing just not sure that the way the tree is set up now that it's possible for one spec to be viable/optimal for single target raid tanking AND high threat aoe tanking.

Personally I'd like to see just a few less points required in the prot tree to allow 15 points in either holy or ret. That way you'd get differences between tanks yet still have the pally tank viable for their main role(s).

BTW looking at ret and knowing that in my guild we only run with one tank Heart of the crusader and conviction look very tasty. But as the MT for our small guild I know my real job is to spend the points in the prot tree only :(.

As a result I think this would have to be my core build 60/10 http://wotlk.wowhead.com/?talent=sZV0tIgczrgqeoGoV0x


You forget, bro, that apparently we'll be able to "swap" between 2 specs on the fly, well, outta combat at least.
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Postby bjanssen » Mon Jul 21, 2008 2:44 pm

Songblade wrote:You forget, bro, that apparently we'll be able to "swap" between 2 specs on the fly, well, outta combat at least.


Wut!! where the heck is that note.. Ok gotta go read that in the patch notes - if so then that really does change things a LOT.

Instead of spending days theorycrafting to figure out the optimal compromise it will be up to the tank to look at each group of mobs and decide which spec/gear set is best - on the fly!
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Postby Dorvan » Mon Jul 21, 2008 2:50 pm

Songblade wrote:You forget, bro, that apparently we'll be able to "swap" between 2 specs on the fly, well, outta combat at least.


I've heard that they want to allow people to have 2 specs or so that they can switch between without paying every time, but I've heard nothing about it being "on the fly" anywhere in the world as long as you're out of combat. I think Blizz still wants some permanence to talent builds. I'd expect switches to still happen only at trainers, and perhaps with a short cooldown if you're just switching between the 2 builds you have saved.
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Postby Neara » Mon Jul 21, 2008 5:18 pm

If it's on the fly (which i doubt) i wouldn't take a second Tank-build. I'd take either Holy or Ret for the encounters i'm not tanking.


Blizzard has already stated that the gear jump is not going to be near the way it was for BC. There will be some, but not such a large amount.


lvl 70 Blue 2-h Axe 129.7 DPS (Torch of the damned 130.4 DPS)
lvl 70 Blue Fist 99.9 DPS (Warglaive of Azinoth 109.3 DPS)

I know it doesn't compare because of other stats, but still ..


lvl 75 Blue 2-h Sword already 141.9 DPS


The gear jump will be big enough, really
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Postby Hollyhell » Mon Jul 21, 2008 6:34 pm

Neara wrote:If it's on the fly (which i doubt) i wouldn't take a second Tank-build. I'd take either Holy or Ret for the encounters i'm not tanking.


Blizzard has already stated that the gear jump is not going to be near the way it was for BC. There will be some, but not such a large amount.


lvl 70 Blue 2-h Axe 129.7 DPS (Torch of the damned 130.4 DPS)
lvl 70 Blue Fist 99.9 DPS (Warglaive of Azinoth 109.3 DPS)

I know it doesn't compare because of other stats, but still ..


lvl 75 Blue 2-h Sword already 141.9 DPS


The gear jump will be big enough, really


The point is that it's not nearly as big as BC was.

I think you need to look at a few other things on those blues before you decide exactly whether or not they are "better". It will be hard to replace the glaives until 80 (if you have both).

I know quite a few people who, because of set bonuses, did not replace a lot of their t3 until they got several pieces of t4.

I think it all depends on where you are in the game.

I used my t2 pants until I finally eeked out s3 pants on my warlock.

The difference, however, between gear, etc from pre-bc to bc was HUGE.

I don't think stat allocation is going up that much, not like it did in BC.

Hell, pre-bc a rogue was lucky to pull 3500 buffed. Now, they pull 11k without breaking a sweat. Mages barely had 3k. Now they push 2x that.

Tanks? if you had 10k, that was a LOT. I clock in around 22k fully buffed now, warrior and druid tanks I know pull around 24k plus.

That's a HUGE jump. Seeing an almost lvl 71 weapon that is similar to my BT epic doesn't phase me. A green, that would suck. A blue? Not as much.
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Postby elson » Mon Jul 21, 2008 8:49 pm

I agree with what jere said except I am not entirely certain that redoubt/shield spec are going to be "required" unless the multipliers affect the block value gained from str vs the block value on gear.

We've already seen the eternal earthstorm diamond have different multipliers then we were all hoping for, so if this talent only affects block value from gear, then a lot more gear with block value is going to have to show up then what has so far.

Paying 8 talent points for a 30% increase to 200 or so block value would be... meh.

Someone whos actually in beta needs to test this. I also want to see what avoidance levels are like on gear, because I'm seriously considering a threat spec without deflection.
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Postby Girard-eredar » Tue Jul 22, 2008 12:23 am

I fail to see how Judgments of the Just is necessary in a 25man setting, for surely there will be a warrior around with imp TC. 10mans maybe.
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Postby bjanssen » Tue Jul 22, 2008 4:00 am

elson wrote:... I also want to see what avoidance levels are like on gear, because I'm seriously considering a threat spec without deflection.


The other part to this is that if as seems to be true that mobs 3 levels higher no longer do crushing blows then maybe we no longer have to be as paranoid about avoidance. It seems to me that given imp judgement isn't going to be necessary so maybe the whole idea of speccing into ret may no longer be the cookie cutter after all. Just skip that 5% avoidance and generate so much threat that the boss dies before it can kill you?

Just playing around with spec ideas :)
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Postby jere » Tue Jul 22, 2008 5:38 am

elson wrote:I agree with what jere said except I am not entirely certain that redoubt/shield spec are going to be "required" unless the multipliers affect the block value gained from str vs the block value on gear.

We've already seen the eternal earthstorm diamond have different multipliers then we were all hoping for, so if this talent only affects block value from gear, then a lot more gear with block value is going to have to show up then what has so far.

Paying 8 talent points for a 30% increase to 200 or so block value would be... meh.

Someone whos actually in beta needs to test this. I also want to see what avoidance levels are like on gear, because I'm seriously considering a threat spec without deflection.


Well ask yourself, how many greens/blues from early HFP, ZM, and Terrokar Forrest had block value on them when the BC first came out? Right now we are looking at stuff that isn't even high end dungeon level, much less raid level. It might turn out that SS gives us almost no benefit while levelling, but when raid level content gets closer, we start seeing more BV on gear. Or possibly not.
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Postby jere » Tue Jul 22, 2008 5:42 am

On a separate note. To get past the 28 point mark and grab Holy Shield, we will need to put at least 2 points in either

Divine Strength
Divine Guardian
Reckoning
1HWS
Spell Warding

So one of our choices will need to be out of that group.

28 point mark for reference:
http://wotlk.wowhead.com/?talent=sZV0tIxczM
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Postby Aerien » Tue Jul 22, 2008 10:39 am

Judgement of the Just may be necessary for 25mans only if it stacks with TC, otherwise tell that clown of a warrior to keep that TC thang up.
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Postby Worldie » Tue Jul 22, 2008 10:46 am

Depends, on multitank encounters, you want to be able to keep TC up by yourself.

Also, not every guild has prot warriors, we often raid without any warrior at all :x
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