Wrath Protection Paladins made out like THEIVES!

All things related to the expansion

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Postby moduspwnens » Fri Jul 18, 2008 12:25 pm

Splug wrote:It was there, and then it was taken out.

Ha! I'm not crazy.
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Postby Splug » Fri Jul 18, 2008 12:32 pm

moduspwnens wrote:
Splug wrote:It was there, and then it was taken out.

Ha! I'm not crazy.
I disagree. But you were correct in your observation.

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Postby snowwight » Fri Jul 18, 2008 1:07 pm

Things which were fixed:

1. Single target mana->threat dumps.

2. Stamina -> SP conversion.

3. Block Value -> threat!

4. Useful roles while not tanking(hand of sacrifice, divine guardian, hand of salvation, imp dev aura). Also a small bone to healing in healing gear (30% crit heal bonus).

5. Way to regen mana when off-tanking (kinda- least we have JoB/JoM now).

6. reliable SoV/SoCor! Oh my!

7. An even more specialized mitigation system(with the change to warrior shield block).

8. A more active playstyle.

Things which were not fixed:

1. Spell interrupts/reflect/absorb/block/etc. Expect more caster bosses with death knight tanks around!

2. Blessing of sanctuary(though since there's no >70 rank, maybe there's still hope for this).

Things which have gotten worse:

1. Talent tree bloat! There's way, way too many required points and it needs cleanup bad.

2. Mana issues. Higher costs on all abilities + no int on gear(presumably) spells trouble, particularly while soloing, duoing, or in 5 mans. Notice how the warrior talent to assist with this GIVES rage, while our talent merely REDUCES mana cost. And though while tossing heals in tank gear was largely ineffective before, now it seems even less sustainable. Our holy and ret brethren could also use some form of mana regen on a short cooldown.

3. Confusing itemization! Warrior weapons for more hammer threat or caster weapons for more aoe threat? (Probably both). Having a choice between warrior tanking gear or a mix of prot warrior and holy pally gear could be bad for Blizzard attempting to balance our threat.

4. removal of crushing blows + addition of druid last stand = druids best physical tanks? WTB Armor values and formula at level 80.


More good stuff than bad, but it's still kind of a mixed bag imo. Once the shininess of the cool new stuff wears off.
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Postby Worldie » Fri Jul 18, 2008 2:15 pm

For your last issue, we still got non-armor-related 6% (10% for war) plus our block, making us very viable if not better than druids.
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halabar wrote:Noo.. you don't realize the problem. Worldie was to negative guild breaking energy like Bolvar is to the Scourge. If Worldie is removed, than someone must pick up that mantle, otherwise that negative guild breaking energy will run rampant, destroying all the servers.
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Postby moduspwnens » Fri Jul 18, 2008 2:23 pm

Worldie wrote:For your last issue, we still got non-armor-related 6% (10% for war) plus our block, making us very viable if not better than druids.


Our Devotion Aura will scale nastily with their armor though. Let's hope they get capped quickly so it works to our advantage.
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Postby Dorvan » Fri Jul 18, 2008 2:25 pm

moduspwnens wrote:
Worldie wrote:For your last issue, we still got non-armor-related 6% (10% for war) plus our block, making us very viable if not better than druids.


Our Devotion Aura will scale nastily with their armor though. Let's hope they get capped quickly so it works to our advantage.


Um, Imp Dev Aura increase Dev Aura's armor bonus by 50%, not the player's....or to you just mean X additional armor doesn't help them as much as it does us? Could be, but that's the same issue as exists with Dev Aura now, and it's not a gap-closer.
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Postby Worldie » Fri Jul 18, 2008 2:33 pm

moduspwnens wrote:
Worldie wrote:For your last issue, we still got non-armor-related 6% (10% for war) plus our block, making us very viable if not better than druids.


Our Devotion Aura will scale nastily with their armor though. Let's hope they get capped quickly so it works to our advantage.

I think you and many more mis-read the devo aura talent. It's still crap regarding the bonus armor
theckhd wrote:Fuck no, we've seen what you do to guilds. Just imagine what you could do to an entire country. Just visiting the US might be enough to make the southern states try to secede again.

halabar wrote:Noo.. you don't realize the problem. Worldie was to negative guild breaking energy like Bolvar is to the Scourge. If Worldie is removed, than someone must pick up that mantle, otherwise that negative guild breaking energy will run rampant, destroying all the servers.
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Postby Averroes » Fri Jul 18, 2008 2:35 pm

Devo aura increases x% healed so in other words mabe its mroe suited for holy rather than prot who knows.
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Postby Worldie » Fri Jul 18, 2008 2:36 pm

Nah, the 3% increased heal is good for tanks
theckhd wrote:Fuck no, we've seen what you do to guilds. Just imagine what you could do to an entire country. Just visiting the US might be enough to make the southern states try to secede again.

halabar wrote:Noo.. you don't realize the problem. Worldie was to negative guild breaking energy like Bolvar is to the Scourge. If Worldie is removed, than someone must pick up that mantle, otherwise that negative guild breaking energy will run rampant, destroying all the servers.
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Postby Fridmarr » Fri Jul 18, 2008 2:38 pm

Worldie wrote:For your last issue, we still got non-armor-related 6% (10% for war) plus our block, making us very viable if not better than druids.


Since the bonuses are multiplicative, 75% DR is generally more mitigation than our armor plus 6% even with block factored in.

For instance a 20k hit with 65% armor, 6% RF, and 1000 BV
20,000 * .35 = 7000
7000 * .94 = 6580
6580 - 1000 = 5580

Vs a straight 75% reduction
20,000 * .25 = 5000

So even with 1k BV and 65% reduction from armor you still take 10% more damage.
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Postby DeadMilliken » Fri Jul 18, 2008 2:46 pm

Fridmarr wrote:So even with 1k BV and 65% reduction from armor you still take 10% more damage.


Assuming druids didn't get nerfed on avoidance ;)
(*wotlk.info had a scale estimate based on lv73 values.....if it is right Druids took a NASTY agi->dodge penalty....in the neighborhood of 50% reduction)
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Re: Wrath Protection Paladins made out like THEIVES!

Postby Invisusira » Fri Jul 18, 2008 4:40 pm

Very nice post, agreed 99%! The 1%:

Warcraft wrote:What more could you ask for? I certainly couldn't ask for more, and I bla bla bla beta BC

Uhhhh, an oh shit button? You know, the thing we've been asking for since before BC came out and druids are getting? =3

Not that I'm really complaining; the changes to LoH SORT of address this, but I'd still like a damage mitigating REAL oh shit button.
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Re: Wrath Protection Paladins made out like THEIVES!

Postby Soltyr » Fri Jul 18, 2008 5:39 pm

Invisusira wrote:Very nice post, agreed 99%! The 1%:

Warcraft wrote:What more could you ask for? I certainly couldn't ask for more, and I bla bla bla beta BC

Uhhhh, an oh shit button? You know, the thing we've been asking for since before BC came out and druids are getting? =3

Not that I'm really complaining; the changes to LoH SORT of address this, but I'd still like a damage mitigating REAL oh shit button.


Not sure if you can consider a "real" oh shit button
but assuming there will be a chance for a prot/holy spec:

Ardent Defender + Full HP istant heal + 50% bonus armor for 15sec (16min c/d) and

Sacred Shield, not a lot dmg mitig atm, but it's there and it can be subject to a rework during the beta or turned in a "oh shit button", who know. (actually it does cost 35 mana and I doubt it's the definitive version, while the tooltip doesn't show a duration either).
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Postby moduspwnens » Fri Jul 18, 2008 5:55 pm

Still crossing fingers for bubble to be a panic button, based on odd wording of talents.

/crossfingers
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Postby Soltyr » Fri Jul 18, 2008 6:06 pm

moduspwnens wrote:Still crossing fingers for bubble to be a panic button, based on odd wording of talents.

/crossfingers



I hope for a BoSanc changes really (Bubble is a nice OT tool now).
I can't believe WotlK will ship that same blessing again as 21 talent point.


ps: Waiting for the next Invisusira Kitten rescue in 2H-HammeroftheRighteous tanking mode :D
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