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New WotLK tanking style

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Postby Dorvan » Fri Jul 18, 2008 1:43 pm

Lore wrote:You're also planning around refreshing HS constantly, which might not be as important anymore if they remove crushing blows. It might end up being better, at least from a threat standpoint, to let HS drop off while you get HoR and Shield of Righteousness in.

We need an abbreviation for Shield of Righteousness, we've already got an SoR. ShR? ShoR?


I've been using StoR. There could be some confusion with the seal, but it's Seal of Righteousness, not Seal of the Righteous.

Sh would make is more obvious, but I don't like ShotR.

Also, you're absolutely right about it maybe being preferable to not always want HS refreshed immediately, but even without crushing blows block is still mitigation.
Last edited by Dorvan on Fri Jul 18, 2008 1:44 pm, edited 2 times in total.
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Postby kalbear » Fri Jul 18, 2008 1:43 pm

I think the optimal rotation is going to heavily depend on whether crushing blows are removed (almost certainly) and what the new abilities' threat values actually are. Consecration will likely not be the #1 threat skill any more, but it is unclear whether ShoR, HotR or JoR/JoV will be best.

It's also unclear whether you can reasonably afford all these things. 6% of base mana for ShoR, 1745 mana for AS, 1475 mana for consecrate, 6% mana for HotR. 12% of base mana + 1745 is a pretty large chunk every 8 seconds...right now, that would mean taking roughly 20k damage in 8 seconds time to get that mana back. That's doable, but that's just for those abilities; it ignores judgments, seals and any other abilities you might have. I think consecrate may be like thunderclap in that you'll be keeping it up for the debuff some times, but you won't be using it much on single-target mobs.
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Postby Lore » Fri Jul 18, 2008 1:46 pm

Well, AS is still a 30 second cooldown, so you wouldn't be using it every 8 seconds. But yeah it's really starting to look like mana conservation is gonna be another thing we have to worry about. Even if Consecration is worth a ton of threat it might be a good idea to leave it out of the rotation most of the time.
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Postby Fridmarr » Fri Jul 18, 2008 1:47 pm

Lore wrote:Well, AS is still a 30 second cooldown, so you wouldn't be using it every 8 seconds. But yeah it's really starting to look like mana conservation is gonna be another thing we have to worry about. Even if Consecration is worth a ton of threat it might be a good idea to leave it out of the rotation most of the time.


Yeah, if you have the talent to reduce the cost, the reduction will likely be always in effect for aoe encounters, but not always for single target stuff. I kind of hope it works that way.
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Postby Targonis » Fri Jul 18, 2008 1:48 pm

kalbear wrote:I think the optimal rotation is going to heavily depend on whether crushing blows are removed (almost certainly) and what the new abilities' threat values actually are. Consecration will likely not be the #1 threat skill any more, but it is unclear whether ShoR, HotR or JoR/JoV will be best.

It's also unclear whether you can reasonably afford all these things. 6% of base mana for ShoR, 1745 mana for AS, 1475 mana for consecrate, 6% mana for HotR. 12% of base mana + 1745 is a pretty large chunk every 8 seconds...right now, that would mean taking roughly 20k damage in 8 seconds time to get that mana back. That's doable, but that's just for those abilities; it ignores judgments, seals and any other abilities you might have. I think consecrate may be like thunderclap in that you'll be keeping it up for the debuff some times, but you won't be using it much on single-target mobs.


It looks like we're going to need to be skill-selective a'la rage tanking as a warrior/druid to ensure we don't roll out of mana and can still maintain threat. I personally think its a good change, minus all the damn drinking well have to do in between pulls.
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Postby Lore » Fri Jul 18, 2008 1:50 pm

Dorvan wrote:I've been using StoR. There could be some confusion with the seal, but it's Seal of Righteousness, not Seal of the Righteous.


And it's Shield of Righteousness :P

http://wotlk.wowhead.com/?spell=53600

Also, you're absolutely right about it maybe being preferable to not always want HS refreshed immediately, but even without crushing blows block is still mitigation.


Right, just something to think about. We seem to be getting a lot of ways to shift our playstyle around situationally, I love it.
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Postby Dorvan » Fri Jul 18, 2008 1:51 pm

Damn. Ok, back to the drawing board. ShR or ShoR works for me, I think I prefer the 2nd.
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Postby Petrus » Fri Jul 18, 2008 2:04 pm

It's so much like Shield Slam... SSoR?
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Postby kalbear » Fri Jul 18, 2008 2:14 pm

So, let's ignore the uncommon case and go to the common one. If you have imp judgmentx2, your cycle can look basically like this:

0.0 HS
1.5 Judge
3.0 HotR
4.5 ShoR
6.0 Consecrate
8.0 HS

This wastes .5 seconds, but otherwise repeats. .5 seconds is also the time for a holy wrath, so you could insert that in there if you wanted to without breaking the cycle. Depends a lot on whether HS/Judge/Consecrate is better threat than HotR/ShoR. If those are better, you'll be looking at a more spriest-like flowchart.
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Postby QuantumDelta » Fri Jul 18, 2008 2:17 pm

Quite a lot of new anacronyms coming in WOTLK for us x_x

TbtL
GbTL
SotT
JotJ
HotR (could be HoR)
SoCo(rruption)
HoP
ShoR

To go along with:
Exo
Consec
S(J)otC
S(J)oC
S(J)oR



ShoR isn't SotR I'm afraid:

* Shield of Righteousness: (Level 75, 6 sec cooldown) Slam the target with your shield, causing Holy damage equal to 200% of your block value. This spell causes a high amount of threat.

SSoR would also work if we wanted to be quirky I guess :P

Back to lore's point:
I think we would probably drop consecration for single target tanking unless we have superfluous mana.
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Postby Dorvan » Fri Jul 18, 2008 2:17 pm

@kalbear: Yeah, you're taking a 25% hit to ShoR and HotR damage there...plus you're not taking advantage of the flexible HS cooldown and you're spamming Cons on a single target. Based on all the mana expenditures we're seeing, I'm betting we'll care at least a little about mana efficiency and Cons is pretty terrible for that. I think Cons being low priority in a single target rotation is a pretty safe assumption atm.
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Postby Targonis » Fri Jul 18, 2008 3:12 pm

I think we need to start looking at available mana and projected mana regeneration via healing when building rotations to make sure we can actually fit it all in...

QuantumDelta wrote:SoCo (rruption)


Any lime with that?
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Postby Jellypop » Fri Jul 18, 2008 4:12 pm

LOLSLAM and LOLCLEAVE

probably more regonizable then ShoR or HoR or whatever you can come up with.

LOLSLAM and LOLCLEAVE, and others will be able to know too.



because, after all, we're STILL the LOL class spec to about 80% of the population out there (atleast, to me.)
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Postby Kelaan » Fri Jul 18, 2008 4:17 pm

kalbear wrote:So, let's ignore the uncommon case and go to the common one. If you have imp judgmentx2, your cycle can look basically like this...


Can we consider imp judgement as being "the common case", though? I know that the new deep prot tree talents are so tempting that I have a REALLY hard time justifying even 1 point in improved judgements. (well, 1 I could do, but only if I'm going for PoJ instead of improved seals ... which is likely a poor idea.)
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Postby knaughty » Fri Jul 18, 2008 8:18 pm

Lore wrote:- Is consecration still part of our main threat rotation? Or is it purely an AOE tanking ability (where we're not likely to be using Shield of Righteousness)? What about Holy Shield?

I can see Rank 6 & Rank 8 both being keybound.
Lore wrote:- Will Hammer of the Righteous be worth using when it's not hitting multiple targets?

Semi-Useless level 70 theorycraft incoming.

Assume a Brutalizer. Average white hit, in my current tanking gear (T-6), would be ~200, with very little warrior gear in my set. Same weapon, one of our warrior tanks, non-crit of 223.

So assume 223 holy damage, * 1.9 for RF, and it's at 70 TPS before it's innate multiplier. If I'm reading the "Threat 2.0" source-code right, "high threat" warrior moves are about triple threat.

So it's probably something like 200 TPS at level 70, assuming "high threat" means triple (same as warriors), a level 70 tanking weapon, that RF stacks, and spellpower doesn't help.

I'd spam it.
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