Hammer of the Righteous. End of Spelldamage weapon? (wotlk)

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Hammer of the Righteous. End of Spelldamage weapon? (wotlk)

Postby Conq » Fri Jul 18, 2008 3:59 am

Discuss.

Not sure if this is the right place, but couldn't find any dedicated wotlk forum.

"Hammer the current target and up to 2 additional nearby targets, causing 100% weapon damage as Holy damage. This ability causes high threat."
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Postby ulushnar » Fri Jul 18, 2008 4:03 am

http://www.failsafedesign.com/maintanka ... 20&start=0

Blizz have wanted us to use the "Warrior" tanking weapons for a while now. With the changes in the talent trees unvielled in the beta launch it seems that we'll be slightly-more reliant on Strength, BV and Stamina for our threat.
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Postby Manius » Fri Jul 18, 2008 4:07 am

I think it's a good thing. Losing out a caster DPS weapon to a tankadin always stings a little.
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Postby ulushnar » Fri Jul 18, 2008 4:11 am

Aye and I always felt a little sad when a Mallet of the Tides was sharded.
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Postby Smartos » Fri Jul 18, 2008 4:46 am

Although I don't know how the caster weapons in WotLK will look like, I think I'll still use a caster weapon if I need the tps. If I need more avoidance/mitigation, then I can still take a "normal" tanking weapon.
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Postby Ferrosis » Fri Jul 18, 2008 4:54 am

It looks as though a spell damage weapon will still be needed, unless large multi-mob pulls are taken out.

Picture a similar encounter to Tide-walker, 12 murlocs = consecration holding agro not BoSc or HS. Consecration is based on Spell Damage and the 30% of Stamina Spell Damage isn't going to be enough.


Although 115 points of damage from Retribution Aura might change things up until your dps pulls agro.
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Postby ulushnar » Fri Jul 18, 2008 5:00 am

Speak for yourself. Raidbuffed I have about 1550 stamina, which will translate into nearly 500 spelldamage, which is approximately what I wear in my MT set atm. Assuming similar gear scaling in TBC (possibly slightly better since my current set is gemmed for spelldamage in a few places) then I don't see a problem.

Of course we could equip a spelldamage weapon if we wanted to be silly, but I don't think it'll be "necessary" by any stretch.
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heh

Postby Mavrix » Fri Jul 18, 2008 9:23 am

No matter how much spell damage we get from other things, there will always be times when we want MOAR! That being said, this does free us up for more choices and probably (which would be more ideal) swapping weapons around on the fly for the situation at hand.
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Postby Fizzgig » Fri Jul 18, 2008 9:27 am

As a side note I'm going to remember to ninja The Brutalizer next time we do BT.
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Postby Dorvan » Fri Jul 18, 2008 9:28 am

Ulushnar wrote:Speak for yourself. Raidbuffed I have about 1550 stamina, which will translate into nearly 500 spelldamage, which is approximately what I wear in my MT set atm. Assuming similar gear scaling in TBC (possibly slightly better since my current set is gemmed for spelldamage in a few places) then I don't see a problem.

Of course we could equip a spelldamage weapon if we wanted to be silly, but I don't think it'll be "necessary" by any stretch.


Well, the real question is: which provides more threat? With a melee tank weapon you get increased Hammer of the Righteous damage, but a spell damage weapon is still a massive chunk of +dam affecting a lot of your threat. I'm sure Blizz intends for us to use melee tank weapons, and I'd like to see the balance fall in that direction...but I think this will be an important area of feedback from us to make sure it winds up that way in the end.

Still need to know a lot more about HotR (and all our other threat abilities for that matter) before we can even start to Theorycraft this question though.
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Re: heh

Postby Lore » Fri Jul 18, 2008 9:29 am

Mavrix wrote:No matter how much spell damage we get from other things, there will always be times when we want MOAR! That being said, this does free us up for more choices and probably (which would be more ideal) swapping weapons around on the fly for the situation at hand.


This sounds feasible.
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Postby Ashmadai » Fri Jul 18, 2008 9:31 am

It seems to be that it's going to be a transition away from the majority of our threat coming from spell damage.

Seems to me like our single target threat now relies more on our new Shield slam, which from the way I read it is not reliant on spell damage, it's just 200% of SBV, and the new Hammer, which is not reliant on spell dmg.

Now for AoE threat, obviously spell damage would still be king, but Seal and Judgement of Righteousness will no longer make up the majority of our single target threat because of the new abilities.
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Postby Lore » Fri Jul 18, 2008 9:34 am

Dorvan wrote:Still need to know a lot more about HotR (and all our other threat abilities for that matter) before we can even start to Theorycraft this question though.


It kind of depends. I can see spell damage weapons being good for large AOE pulls of more than 3 mobs, where Consecration will still probably be the best threat purely because it hits everything.

However, consider this as well: With the spellpower/hit/crit/haste changes, caster DPS weapons are also going to be caster healing weapons. A "warlock" sword with stam, crit, haste, and spellpower looks mighty tasty for a Protadin healing weapon. At the very worst we'll probably have a more traditional healy-style weapon with spellpower on it floating around somewhere (even if it's just intellect, mp5, and spellpower) that we can use in extreme AOE situations.
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Postby knaughty » Fri Jul 18, 2008 7:17 pm

Lore wrote:However, consider this as well: With the spellpower/hit/crit/haste changes, caster DPS weapons are also going to be caster healing weapons. A "warlock" sword with stam, crit, haste, and spellpower looks mighty tasty for a Protadin healing weapon. At the very worst we'll probably have a more traditional healy-style weapon with spellpower on it floating around somewhere (even if it's just intellect, mp5, and spellpower) that we can use in extreme AOE situations.


My guess:

Spellpower mace, enchanted with spellpower, for:
• Off-healing
• AoE tanking (4+ mobs)

Tanking axe/sword for:
• Single target threat (dunno which seal/judgement....)
• Mitigation.

And since Shield block Value is now a threat stat, my AE set and my MT set are much more closely coupled.

There will be spellpower plate in-game: The holydins will be wearing it. The real question is what will out T-7 have on it? Stam/BV/mitigation? Or some spellpower?

I'm hard pressed to work out how we get a multi-purpose set in Wrath. Casters can wear spellpower, and respec DPS or heals as appropriate, with just some tuning round the edges to boos +hit rating when DPS specced.

But tanks will need tanking gear, ret needs Str/AP and Holy wants spell-power. Meh... three sets again :evil:
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Postby Quacky » Fri Jul 18, 2008 9:45 pm

Since this ability has been mentioned a few times and there hasn't been clear math on it, I'll give it a go.

Wowhead says: Req's 1hdy and does 100% of weapon dmg as holy for 3 targets. And it does high threat. (this part is key because that's how warrior abilities with innate threat are described.)

Let's assume we are single boss tanking and the dmg is taken = our white dmg after armor mitigation. Or we can take 145% of that value for pure holy unmitigated dmg as a hand waving approximation.

My Lollipop white dmg in my no str gear is 93 ave. My guilds MT (mr. warrior) does 161. This is a full night's raid average and neither of us have shammies or other wiked buffs besides a BM hunter.

So if the tooltip isn't hiding anything, the ability only scales with weapon dmg which we will take for simplicity the white dmg listed:

Lollipop: 93
Brutalizer: 161.
So that's a difference of 68*1.9/6 = 21.5 TPS.

If blizzard hasn't changed their wording symatics all of the sudden, then the high threat part would be innate threat would be independant of the weapon and hopefully is much bigger than 21.5 TPS (which currently is 21.5/.63 = ~34 spell dmg). The spell dmg will be changed because we will probably use less judge/consecration/holy shield to fit in my gcds for other abilities--but only by 5 or so spell dmg if scaling stays the same.

Sounds very much like HotR doesn't care about what weapon we use if it's restricted to 1hdy as wowhead lists. It will just be whether we want more avoidance/stam or more spell dmg. Cause our weapon already has around 300 spell with enchant. That's like 190 TPS difference lost for avoidance.

Gear will change in the future and maybe weapons will have block value or other things on it we really need. Or maybe it will be a flavor choice between a large TPS weapon or a strong avoidance/survival weapon.

BTW, yeah I realized I only needed like 1 line for this whole post about the math behind HotR...but I realized it after.

TLDR: Currently worded, ilvl 141 ish weapons are only 22 TPS lost from HotR if we use spell dmg weapon over tanking weapon. Might scale to maybe 60 TPS but probalby not much more. Spell dmg weapon would give all that TPS plus more back if consecration/seal/judges are used. HotR's innate threat may be very awesome forcing us to use it with priority over other abilities like HS if crushes are out.
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