Wrath of the Lich King...

All things related to the expansion

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Postby Kysen » Wed Jul 16, 2008 1:10 pm

Saw this posted somewhere.

******Hunter******

Will the pet talents be in addition to all of the old training point based skills that the pets are currently learning automatically?
The training points are going away. However your pet will still gain a few core skills just by leveling up.

Will the pet talent trees be replacing the innate DPS, health and armour modifiers currently applied to the different families?
We're still working on that question. On the one hand, it risks pet families feeling even less distinct from each other. On the other hand, we'd hate to see families ignored as pets just because their dps is 1% lower than cats. Furthermore, not all pet abilities are created equal -- it's hard to make Web and Prowl of equal value, but if the cat's innate dps is also a little higher, things can even out. There will still be tanking vs. dps pets though.

If the innate modifiers for the different families are kept, will we see the "tanking pet families" getting an innate threat modifier so they actually hold aggro better than the DPS pets?
As a couple of people have pointed out, each family gets one of three talent trees. Cats can get talents from the damage tree while turtles go to the tanking tree. A cat still has Growl and can still tank to some extent, but the turtle with the right talents will be better at it.

How large will the pet talent trees be and how many talent points will we get to spend? (e.g. 1 point per two levels starting at level 10 might be good, giving 36 talent points to play with at level 80, which would then suggest 21 point talent trees)
They are going to be smaller than player talent trees, but that also means each individual point can provide more benefit.

Will the pet talent trees be the same regardless of pet family? Perhaps the DPS and Tanking trees will stay the same, with the Utility tree varying based around the theme represented by the family specific skill?
If you have 2 pets who are both tanking families, then their talent trees will be the same. The differences will be the unique abilities each family gets, diet, art and perhaps some adjustment to base stats.

This is a big change, and it is going to take some iteration and feedback before it's ready. But it's the kind of thing we have wanted to do for some time.

Each pet will only have one tree?
There are 3 trees. Each pet family has access to one tree. Cats for instance have access to the damage tree. Turtles have access to the tanking tree. If you saw the WWI presentation, each tree has about 16 talents in it. Some talents appear in more than one tree.
If you want a really awesome tanking pet, you should pick one from the tanking families. If you want your cat to be decent at dps and tanking, you can still do that by picking talents that boost damage and mitigation. But it won't have access to the very best tanking talents.

Give us more stable slots
That would be a nice change in conjunction with the talent trees wouldn't it? :)



We wanted to share with you a bit more news from our development team in regard to pets, especially loyalty and also a little bit about stat scaling.

We're definitely wanting to take a look at pet stat scaling, especially in regard to PvP. In particular we're keen to take a look at resilience as we feel that an opponent needs to be able to burst damage down your pet when they actually focus on doing that. No, we're not saying we're going to convert all pet skin to glass! ;-)

One thing we want to do, is to allow you to choose between damage and mitigation. Pretty much everything right now, except for Cobra Reflexes for example, is about survivability. We're wanting to you to be able to choose between focusing on damage or health, and even a combination of both if that's what you're wanting to do.

With the changes we've made to hunters so far, particularly with the pet talents, more -- and ideally all -- pet families are going to be viable now. For example, turtles have a focus dump so their DPS should be tolerable but they also have awesome defensive abilities that'll allow them to survive for much longer.

Another thing to add in regard to pet talents is that along with those that will be familiar will also be new abilities, such as some that will make it less painful when your pet dies just a few moments into a fight.

In regard to Loyalty, well, it has now been completely removed. It had become somewhat sidelined and doesn't really do anything we thought was important enough to maintain or reinvigourate. You'll still have to level up your pet, even if it is now only a maximum of five levels. Also you will continue to need to feed your pet to keep it happy, as we feel this is part of the flavour of being a hunter.

We're still working on hunter and pet abilities, though. We're hoping that removing Loyalty won't make you feel your pet is somewhat disposable. With that in mind, one further thing we might work on is something to stop you just grabbing a new random pet before entering a battleground, arena or instance. We don't want the changes made to taming pets to lessen the connection you have with your current pet.

*******DeathKnight*******

We've been experimenting with Death and Decay & Army of the Dead, and we feel that there's a little too much overlap between these two abilities. Both are currently powerful area spells with long cooldowns. The feeling is that Army of the Dead should be more of an emergency ability you use when things are going badly. We're wanting it to be a bit like the death knight version of Retaliation or Recklessness.

So with that in mind we'll probably be adjusting Death and Decay so it is used more in your normal spell rotation -- perhaps it could be used as a big area pull spell. It'll never be a Consecrate, but it could become a little bit more like that. But we're not wanting it to be a tank only tool though.

*******Paladin*******

I know this is a thread about all specs of paladins, but we just wanted to provide a bit of information especially intended for the holy tree.

Q u o t e:
Holy: Illumination was nerfed, coupled with down ranking, while paladins are still mana efficient the large spike damage and indeed large volume of raid damage leads to a lot of mana use. Most other classes have some form of active regeneration on their mana.


Well it was definitely felt by the developers at one point that Illumination was just too powerful, so it was indeed turned down. At the start of Burning Crusade, holy paladins were actually pretty amazing healers -- arguably the best single target healers. With Illumination as it was, mana wasn't really a problem for them at all. So much so that some players of other healing classes were starting to feel they were being pushed out in preference to the mana-battery paladins.

So in order to turn the tide a little, later Burning Crusade instances were designed to deal out more group damage and require a lot more moving around. Coupled with the fact this was occurring just before and around the same time as Spirit-based mana regeneration was being buffed, soon many paladins were finding their healing abilities were no longer quite so shiny. Other healers were finding their mana regeneration was being improved whilst the paladin's mana was being toned down.

So now we're looking at a situation where the holy paladin is needing some much needed love again. Perhaps Illumination needs to be restored to how it used to be. Another solution could be to dish out abilities lacking in the paladin, but with a paladin theme. So for example, giving the paladin an AoE heal, a heal-on-the-run and a HoT. But then we risk making holy paladins seeming to be indistinct from their healing shaman, priest or druid friends. There's a very thin line between maintaining class distinctiveness and providing all the abilities needed to fulfill a players role.

As you know, we're doing a lot of work on paladins in general at the moment. And in regard to holy paladins, we're pretty sure that we want them to be powerful single target healers. We want holy paladins healing the main tank, or to be able to leap to the defense of a severely injured target needing to be healed up super fast. So in order to make that happen we need to introduce mechanics that don't make running fights so punishing, and also implement new skills and abilities that do help to fill the gap between paladins and the other healers while still keeping them unique and distinct.
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Postby Kelaan » Wed Jul 16, 2008 1:22 pm

These all may be heresay, but in case they ARE legit: {edit: where are these from?}

Kysen wrote:it's hard to make Web and Prowl of equal value....


If spider pets can get WEB, that would become almost instantly the must-have PVP pet. It'd be nice to have some spider love, I admit.

each family gets one of three talent trees. Cats can get talents from the damage tree while turtles go to the tanking tree. A cat still has Growl and can still tank to some extent, but the turtle with the right talents will be better at it.... Some talents appear in more than one tree. If you want a really awesome tanking pet, you should pick one from the tanking families. If you want your cat to be decent at dps and tanking, you can still do that by picking talents that boost damage and mitigation. But it won't have access to the very best tanking talents.


Aww. :( that kindof sucks, IMO. I'll miss having my cat be a well rounded, re-speccable tank if I need it. Still, it does make sense.

And, they didn't say "no" on the stable slots, which is hot hot hot, as it means you no longer need to say "well, I have a cat and a pvp pet, what about either a raiding or tanking pet?".


In regard to Loyalty, well, it has now been completely removed.... have to level up your pet, even if it is now only a maximum of five levels.

YES! :D This means i may eventually actually get a boar or something, then.

.... on to Paladins, hehe, so I can be back on topic.


We want holy paladins healing the main tank, or to be able to leap to the defense of a severely injured target needing to be healed up super fast. So in order to make that happen we need to introduce mechanics that don't make running fights so punishing...

I like that they are making it a little easier for paladin healers to react to group damage. I still need lots of practice at it, but this makes it sound less daunting.
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Postby Aertho » Wed Jul 16, 2008 1:36 pm

You know, if they wanted massive gold sinks, additional stable slots for 10,000 gold isn't irrational thought. Giving each class or race something cosmetic or toylike would've made Haris Pilton a stampede victim. Designer bags waste my time. Two slots to solve my gear issues is a slap to the face.

As if allowing limited-time-only purchase of new models for polymorphs, druid form colouring, succubi bikinis, green Immolates, 24-hour "Orb of the Broken Draenei" or "Orb of the Mag'Har Orc", etc is so hard.
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Postby Melathys » Wed Jul 16, 2008 3:39 pm

So, the Alpha is over, and still no paladin talents.

Not sure whether or not to worry about it. Has been said, that Alpha is where major changes are implemented and changed again, and Beta you only see minor changes to what's introduced...and we hear they plan to pretty much overhaul paladin class. So...
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Postby Vanifae » Wed Jul 16, 2008 5:14 pm

Melathys wrote:So, the Alpha is over, and still no paladin talents.

Not sure whether or not to worry about it. Has been said, that Alpha is where major changes are implemented and changed again, and Beta you only see minor changes to what's introduced...and we hear they plan to pretty much overhaul paladin class. So...

There were major changes in Beta and Alpha for BC.

They will get the talents done on their time table.
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Postby iliya » Wed Jul 16, 2008 6:01 pm

If that info you placed about Holy Pallies is right, Kysen, I don't like it. The tone left me with a sour taste in my mouth.
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Postby Sharlos » Wed Jul 16, 2008 6:46 pm

iliya wrote:If that info you placed about Holy Pallies is right, Kysen, I don't like it. The tone left me with a sour taste in my mouth.


how so? they pretty much admitted they over-nerfed us.
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Postby moduspwnens » Wed Jul 16, 2008 7:18 pm

Sharlos wrote:
iliya wrote:If that info you placed about Holy Pallies is right, Kysen, I don't like it. The tone left me with a sour taste in my mouth.


how so? they pretty much admitted they over-nerfed us.


Yeah, I'd say it seems they notice the core issues and want to do something about it. That's miles ahead of most classes' issues.
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Postby Kysen » Wed Jul 16, 2008 7:39 pm

Actually it means that holy paladins will still be 1 dimensional MT healers at 80. They will get the odd tools like that martyr talent (pseudo intervene) and some other oh shit healing skill and nothing else. Otherwise healing classes become too similar.
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Postby moduspwnens » Wed Jul 16, 2008 7:59 pm

Kysen wrote:Actually it means that holy paladins will still be 1 dimensional MT healers at 80. They will get the odd tools like that martyr talent (pseudo intervene) and some other oh shit healing skill and nothing else. Otherwise healing classes become too similar.


Well, that may suck, but it's more than they have now.
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Postby jere » Wed Jul 16, 2008 8:14 pm

Was there a source posted on this info per chance?
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Postby Kivas » Thu Jul 17, 2008 2:22 am

my $.o2


I wish we DID have to turn in a lvl 55+toon into a deathknight, i have my first 70, priest who is my main source of income,who i hate to play outside of cutting gems. To be able to turn him into another class, even 15 lvls lower would make me very happy.
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Postby Worldie » Thu Jul 17, 2008 4:15 am

jere wrote:Was there a source posted on this info per chance?


I'm pretty sure i've seen that at the WWI or on wotlkwiki
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Postby Skwigelf » Sat Jul 19, 2008 9:52 pm

Things I read on the WotLK Beta forums that may or may not be true because I cant be bothered to search for confirmation:

Master Mining gives you +20 Stamina
"All your hard work spent mining has made you exceptionally tough, increasing your stamina by 20."

Master Skinning gives you +15 Crit Rating(Master of Anatomy)

Master 'erbalist gives you +20 Spirit
"Your consciousness is permanently raised to a higher level, +20 Spirit!"
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Postby Skwigelf » Sat Jul 19, 2008 10:00 pm

Oh, also the Cobalt set is a lv71 Tanking set. So I guess Blacksmith's finally got tanking gear to create...about a year later...
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