Consecration Mana Cost to Dmg... WOTLK

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Postby Splug » Sun Jul 13, 2008 1:11 am

Morendin wrote:Shield Wall gives you a few more precious seconds into the enrage,
Not really. Enraged, he does enough damage to one-shot through shield wall on the first mainhand swing that connects. And the real killer during enrage is actually meteor slash, since it flash-kills an entire side (whereas the autoattack seems to have a ~.5 sec delay added to the weapon swing with each target change). The last stand, however, can be very critical depending on how you time stomp tradeoffs. But if you use shield wall, it's either as a stomp cover, or transition cover. Personally, I pop reck when Brut gets taunted off in execute range, but there are windows to use shield wall as a non-coreographed part of the fight.

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Postby PsiVen » Sun Jul 13, 2008 1:19 am

Actually I'd like to that one step further and say that Sunwell in general is a masterpiece of tank balance.
Kalecgos is splitting hairs of difference, Sathrovarr taunt cd vs. using DS in emergencies.
Brut is well balanced depending on strategy (see above post).
Felmyst has an ideal role for each tank and they are fairly interchangeable.
Eredar Twins are nearly ideal for tankadins.
M'uru heavily favors tankadins, you'd be best off using 4 of them...
Kil'jaeden from what I gather is quite well balanced as well.

Seriously, if this is how they're going to design encounters in WotLK we have nothing to worry about. Screwups in the mechanical redesigns can be fixed, but fundamental encounter flaws probably won't be. It takes a trainwreck like Solarian to actually get a redesign on live content.
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Postby Morendin » Sun Jul 13, 2008 9:06 am

On a more general note, I'm really exited for WotLK based on The Sunwell- even beyond not screwing tanks because they rolled the wrong class, it continues the trend of T6 being better than the BC release raids, which were better than almost all the vanilla raid content(I've heard people liked Naxx better, but I never saw that)...think about brutallis, the 'tank and spank' of sunwell, in the context of anything but Kalecgos...on top of being AMAZINGLY well tuned as a throughput/raid optimization check that requires everyone to go balls to the wall without being impossible, has a few 'minor gimmicks'...that wouldn't have been minor if Brut was anywhere else in progression.

Meteor Slash getting taunted back and forth on a very precise timer
Stomp requires the tanks to plan a cooldown rotation so they don't get caught with their pants down
Burn makes random people run to very specific places, which they must do before the next slash but must NOT run over even a single other person.

That's no MC-style tank and spank, that's an encounter that's polished until it shines...and the way it gives all three tanks an advantage that no other tank can provide, making tank choice a matter of TRUE strategy on the part of the raid leader, not merely 'read bosskillers, use optimal tank'?
that's a thing of beauty in my eyes.

I mean, try thinking about the trade-offs in survivability/rDPS:

If you use bear/bear, you've minimized brutallis's potential burst,
BUT
one of your bears must use double clicky-trinks or take an untrinketed stomp, and to get Commanding Shout, you need to put a DPS warrior in the tank group- if you only have one warrior, you just took Battle Shout off 5 melee, not just one, and now you have the lesser-evil choice of having that resto shaman give that one warrior WF so his/her DPS isn't utterly neutered, or giving the bears GoA for, what, 5% avoidance and a crapload of threat

Paladin/Bear
You get loads of threat from the paladin with significantly lower odds of the 2nd tank getting gibbed if you use the rotation that allows multiple taunts out of stomp...you also get the option of having the paladin spam holy light before and during the bear's stomp- it may be utter shit compared to a real healer, but an extra 2k HPS on the tank is that much less chance of a gib, and it's not like the paladin is going to run dry...hell, I do this because I can't get low ENOUGH before taunting without uselessly spammin RF, otherwise.
BUT
double clickies or the bear takes one to the face
Arms warrior group buff fiasco

Paladin/Warrior
Warrior can us last stand/SW in the stomp rotation, so both tanks can use their Commendation of Kael'thas for overitemized goodness.
no more dealing with an arms warrior in the tank group, one tank or the other runs over between slashes to refresh commanding
prot failheals
lotsa threat
warrior tank can put up demo+TC, both as they run to their spot(which gets it up a crucial second or two before the DPS warrior can*, and adding another little bit of rDPS because the warrior doesn't have to stancedance to keep TC up(since most likely the prot has plenty of threat lead from the paladin's AW opening, they can afford the 2 GCD's per warrior tanking phase to keep it up).
BUT
no bearplate
no barkskin->taunt
no bear=no Feral Fairy Fire for the melee, unless your feral has VERY nice cat gear and there's a spot in the hunter group, AND your hunters and their resto are positioned such that the feral is in range to get totems from the shaman and give LotP to the hunters

Warrior/Warrior and paladin/paladin would certainly work, but don't offer any real advantage over a mixed group(if your DPS are threat capped with a paladin opening with > 2k TPS for 20s, followed by a sustained 1.5k or so, they need to stop clicking off salv :twisted:

*I got utterly gibbed on a pull, we're talking stomp-grade hits with Ironshield already up...turns out the lock was putting CoR up while brut ran to me, letting him get at least one swing in before Demo was up....yeah, now we have the CoR lock open with CoW, then overwrite it with CoR :roll:
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Re: Consecration Mana Cost to Dmg... WOTLK

Postby Sarkan-ZdC » Mon Jul 14, 2008 2:41 am

Widdox2 wrote:Rank 1 -- 120 mana -- 64 dmg -- .53 dmg per mana
Rank 2 -- 205 mana -- 120 dmg -- .58 dmg per mana
Rank 3 -- 290 mana -- 191 dmg -- .65 dmg per mana
Rank 4 -- 390 mana -- 280 dmg -- .71 dmg per mana
Rank 5 -- 505 mana -- 384 dmg -- .76 dmg per mana
Rank 6 -- 660 mana -- 512 dmg -- .775 dmg per mana
----------------------------------------------------------------
WOTLK - Alpha Leaked -
----------------------------------------------------------------
Rank 7 -- 1250 mana -- 576 dmg -- .46 dmg per mana
Rank 8 -- 1475 mana -- 672 dmg -- .45 dmg per mana

----------------------
My theory is that the only reason for a drastic mana to dmg dropoff is if they add something like a heal component to the spell. If not they are nerfing consecration HARD.


More Math ftw.

Assume 1.000 unified spellpower at level 80:

I, of course, use the rules for downranking (as far as I understood them from wowwiki)

Rank 1 = 348 + 64 Damage = 412 Damage or 3,43 Damage / Mana
Rank 3 = 468 + 191 Damage = 659 Damage or 2,27 Damage / Mana
Rank 6 (I assume Rank 7 is Level 65) = 888 + 512 = 1400 Damage or 2,12 Damage / Mana

Now Rank 8 with 1.000 SD

960 + 672 = 1632 Damage or 1,10 Damage per Mana. The Damage allone is nice. 204 Damage / Sek (no buffs like 1-H specc and so on) IS nice. But compare it to rank 6 and the you'll see the problem. 16% more damage (even with downranking) for 123% extra mana. I'll downrank if I'm not in a unlimited mana situation..
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Postby ulushnar » Mon Jul 14, 2008 2:53 am

Fridmarr wrote:
Ulushnar wrote:A Parable for this, and other alpha posts:


Good grief. We get it already, some of you don't care to partake in posts discussing the alpha.

Here's the thing, a lot of us do. I find it fun to speculate, discuss, theorycraft, and just plain old guess at what the limited information we do have could mean. There could be significant changes made right up until release, but folks are indeed going to be discussing information as it becomes available, you may want to start accepting that.

Instead of continuing to find more creative ways to rain on the parade, simply understand that your objections to these threads were noted long ago, but we still enjoy the discussion so they are unlikely to stop.


I don't actually mind alpha discussion, I was just reminded of the tale when people started speculating what one change, out of context, would mean for us. The WotLK Paladin is a big old elephant atm and we're blindly grasping at information to determine what shape of beast it'll be.

Well it amused me anyway, and that's enough.
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Postby Splug » Mon Jul 14, 2008 10:29 am

The core difference being that we know we're only getting bits and pieces, and are trying to fit them together to see what the whole picture looks like. Besides... if we didn't argue about WotLK, what else is there to do between now and lv 80? We already know all the mechanics for this time period, but with some room for speculation we have plenty to talk about, and discussions don't quickly end with "it works like this and here's a wws to prove it."

Productive? Maybe not, but I wouldn't be trolling a WoW forum if being productive was my main goal!

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Postby ulushnar » Mon Jul 14, 2008 10:44 am

Splug wrote:The core difference being that we know we're only getting bits and pieces, and are trying to fit them together to see what the whole picture looks like.


The blind men knew they were blind as well. And I'm not against discussing the alpha, I just liked the story and it fit.
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Postby halabar » Mon Jul 14, 2008 11:01 am

Ulushnar wrote:I don't actually mind alpha discussion, I was just reminded of the tale when people started speculating what one change, out of context, would mean for us. The WotLK Paladin is a big old elephant atm and BLIZZ is blindly grasping at information to determine what shape of beast it'll be.


Fixed.
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Postby Dragonzbane » Mon Jul 14, 2008 1:02 pm

Morendin wrote:
Kalecgos is warrior/bear advantaged, but as long as you have decent gear, the difference between classes is almost never the difference between living and dying...not even shield wall will save your ass when your healers botch their portals and you're suddenly tanking the demon all by your self...


Kalecgos is about the worst example you can bring up.

Your argument fails utterly and completely here.

Demo Shout
Demo Roar
TC

You cannot guarantee that you'll have a pocket warrior or druid for any of these abilities, therefore we will take the most damage here and are the worst MTs for this fight.


Morendin wrote:Brutallis is, in my opinion, a masterpiece of tank balance.
it MATTERS which tanks you have on him, but no one class is just better:
Bearplate gives much lower total damage, and barkskin -> taunt makes transitions much less dangerous
Shield Wall gives you a few more precious seconds into the enrage, and Last Stand lets you cover one more stomp.
last but not least, we bring HOLY SHIT THREAT to the party, when I open with AW, my threat doesn't drop under 2k until it's gone, and it hits 3k pretty often...we blow the first heroism as soon as Cathmor has Vengence stacked, and in general go balls to the wall as soon as he hits melee range of me...and I still hand my Warrior partner a 20k+ threat lead.


I only have 4 attempts under my belt for this fight so I can't speak from heaps of experience.

But when it came down to who tanked for the progression kills the guild went with a Druid/Warrior combo and not me. This is the first fight I've sat out in this expansion.
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Postby Morendin » Tue Jul 15, 2008 8:14 am

Dragonzbane wrote:
Morendin wrote:
Kalecgos is warrior/bear advantaged, but as long as you have decent gear, the difference between classes is almost never the difference between living and dying...not even shield wall will save your ass when your healers botch their portals and you're suddenly tanking the demon all by your self...


Kalecgos is about the worst example you can bring up.

Your argument fails utterly and completely here.

Demo Shout
Demo Roar
TC

You cannot guarantee that you'll have a pocket warrior or druid for any of these abilities, therefore we will take the most damage here and are the worst MTs for this fight.


No, that's not what I mean. warriors and bears ARE better, assuming equal gear/skill at not fucking up portals....and it doesn't really matter.
Kalecgos is a healer check and a coordination check.(it's also not a DPS check, so you can have a lock put up CoW).

Bearplate is not going to save you when you have two healers and one of them forgets to cast on you for 5-10 seconds and the other has to heal themselves or die.

TC isn't going to save you when your healers botch the rotation/die and you face Kalecgos or Sathrovar *without* a healer.

Assuming you're not trying to tank him in T5, you get a kill the first attempt one of those things doesn't happen...they seem to hit hard because your HP stay low more than in BT...but that's actually because you are getting less healing.
The only burst worth mentioning is Corrupting Strike, which isn't even that bad...9k-> 1-2 unavoidable 6k hits + 3k total DoT= 24k total damage over 3 seconds. I have 22k HP. needing ONE heal in 3 seconds is not impressive.

the choice of tanks for kalecgos has only to make or break requirements:

the ability to make your assigned portal 100% of the time, and get the dragon off the previous tank FAST when you pop out of demon

and not having utterly terrible gear.

we've tanked him with warriors, bears, and myself, and I die no more often than they do...it's all on the healers for this one.[/b]
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Postby Consecrate » Wed Jul 16, 2008 11:19 pm

Dorvan wrote:
Morpheren wrote:Or new rank(s) of spiritual attunement


I'd be fairly surprised at that....the spell already scales inherently, much the same way that you wouldn't expect to see a new rank of cleanse or Righteous Fury.


Yes and no - when I hit 70 I was struggling to maintain any sort of mana in level 70 instances, heroics were fine, but when I actually did a couple of heroics and got some gear, I started having problems with mana.

Now that i've graduated from being an alt, the only way I can manage to do a heroic is to pull umpteen packs, as otherwise it's a very slow and costly run as each pull requires a drink break after.

Even though my gear is comparatively shit to some of the people on these forums, i'm having problems with mana now in BT - having to drink every pack despite ninja taunting off other tanks.

I don't see how Spiritual Attunement scales at all, frankly as scarily enough I went OOM last week whilst MT on Illidan.

Sure, I can ninja taunt more mobs or I can press x and get crit (and probably die) on a boss, but there's nothing I can do except chug mana potions to make this problem go away.

So, Spiritual Attunement doesn't scale, it de-scales with gear.
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Postby Consecrate » Wed Jul 16, 2008 11:26 pm

Zx wrote:
moduspwnens wrote:I'm still hoping they figure out a way to make it so we as tanks don't have to down-gear to tank easier content effectively.


I do not think that this will ever happen because as you outgear an encounter by more and more the damage that you either avoid completely or mitigate will be much higher with an increased gear tier. So tanking curator while in T6 gear would probably hose your mana regen because the incoming damage would be much lower and not using SA properly.


Funny story, or well, not really, but anyway.

Last night I did a quick Karazhan for badges so that I can fund my Ironshield addiction. Went really well as we took only one healer and thus it ment a quick run, however, on every single boss I was going oom, even with down ranked Consecration, is it the intention of Blizzard for me to spend the however much it costs to deck my bank out in 22 slot bags so that I may keep all of the dogshit Karazhan gear I stopped using months ago, just so that I can go through old content in a timely fashion?

I assure you that Bears and Warriors do not have anywhere near as much of a problem with this, as they can just not use HS/Maul and let their auto attack fill their rage bar with their ample tanking DPS output.
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Postby Dragonzbane » Thu Jul 17, 2008 7:57 am

Dorvan wrote:
I'd agree that we're rarely the stand alone best choice, but that we're often the "splitting hairs to find differences" equal choice, and rarely the dead last choice.

In the bigger picture, I think our single target tanking could use buffs in a couple places. I just disagree with the "Pallys are rock-bottom MTs" assessment.


After my horrible night with Brutalis, I would tend to disagree with you.
And so would the rest of my raid who were calling for the Druid replacement.

Hopefully in my other thread I'll be able to figure out what went wrong.
And hopefully it won't be something I did.
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Postby Lookit » Thu Jul 17, 2008 10:09 am

Consecrate wrote: is it the intention of Blizzard for me to spend the however much it costs to deck my bank out in 22 slot bags so that I may keep all of the dogshit Karazhan gear I stopped using months ago, just so that I can go through old content in a timely fashion?


You don't need to swap out your entire gear set. Just take off a piece or two of high-mitigation gear, leaving an empty slot. Or swap in some pure caster gear for the added threat. Or use JoW.
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Postby Dorvan » Thu Jul 17, 2008 11:23 am

Lookit wrote:You don't need to swap out your entire gear set. Just take off a piece or two of high-mitigation gear, leaving an empty slot. Or swap in some pure caster gear for the added threat. Or use JoW.


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