Consecration Mana Cost to Dmg... WOTLK

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Postby Lore » Fri Jul 11, 2008 6:39 am

Should be noted that every mana-using class is getting the same thing, they just increased mana costs across the board.

My guess? Increased coefficients due to the Spellpower change.
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Postby Worldie » Fri Jul 11, 2008 7:02 am

Might also be noted that some classes are getting bigger refunding or getting to save more mana.
Example: priests are getting mana back from their heals like paladins, and shadow priests will not have to recast SWP and will be able to proc spirit tap from damage as well.
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Postby Nottebella » Fri Jul 11, 2008 8:28 am

With increased damage, warriors will see increased rage generation. As a corollary, we may see an increase to Spiritual Attunement (which does have ranks remember), maybe even on the order of double to 20%. That would certainly balance out the increase in mana cost.
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Postby Curious » Fri Jul 11, 2008 8:47 am

Splug wrote:I haven't looked in great detail, but I do recall people mentioning that all classes had most of their skills drastically increase in mana cost (to the tune of 1.5x-2x), and that BoW had jumped something rediculous as well. It could just be as simple as forcing up the mana consumption curve to encourage actually needing to get more mp/5 than the lv 70 gear offers to have the same mana economy, which would presumably become available with the lv 80 gear. Though, I haven't looked closely enough at the other spells to really know whether this is a greater % increase than the other abilities (or even other class' abilities) or not.

-Splug


This to me sounds the most accurate. As has been said before Blizz werent happy at the cost of mp5 on gear, so by bumping up spell costs, and mp5 (as well as spirit recently being reworked) means that mana potions will become less of a dependence - which has been argued as a flawed model previously.

(In that the average mp5 from a super mana pot would be in the order of 100mp5, which only a single item would be an extreme ilvl)

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Postby Angella » Fri Jul 11, 2008 9:18 am

So part of the reason I switched to prot from holy was because I got tired of being the nerfed healing class. I remember topping heal charts up to around TK and then being relegated to MT healing for Hyjal/BT (as an effect of no hots or group heals). It was annoying.

This prot discussion is giving me flashbacks to ret. Blizz buffed ret to the point where it was viable. Then they nerfed it back to mediocre (this is right around the time I went holy). I realize there are a lot of good retadins out there, but honestly ret used to be a lot more effective.

Blizz has buffed prot to the point where paladin tanks are awesome - especially for aoe tanking. Who else feels the nerf stick coming?

Hate to be cynical, but I'm not too confident in Blizz's love for paladins. Hope I'm proved wrong.
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Postby Fridmarr » Fri Jul 11, 2008 9:24 am

Angella wrote:Blizz has buffed prot to the point where paladin tanks are awesome - especially for aoe tanking. Who else feels the nerf stick coming?


If it's not an AoE encounter we are rarely the best or even second best tank. I'm not sure what there is to nerf. Hopefully they'll just buff some of the other classes AoE tanking abilities and then buff our single target tanking ability.
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Postby Splug » Fri Jul 11, 2008 9:34 am

Nottebella wrote:With increased damage, warriors will see increased rage generation. As a corollary, we may see an increase to Spiritual Attunement (which does have ranks remember), maybe even on the order of double to 20%. That would certainly balance out the increase in mana cost.
Player level is one of the variables in the rage equation. As level increases, rage per damage dealt/taken decreases. Damage intake goes up, level goes up, net change is a wash.

EDIT: Though, as we saw in TBC, it may require a bit of tuning for Blizzard to ballpark it where they want it to be... which will result in things being a bit skewed for a while (at TBC, it was set too low and had to be increased).

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Last edited by Splug on Fri Jul 11, 2008 9:38 am, edited 1 time in total.
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Postby Romman » Fri Jul 11, 2008 9:37 am

Fridmarr wrote:
Angella wrote:Blizz has buffed prot to the point where paladin tanks are awesome - especially for aoe tanking. Who else feels the nerf stick coming?


If it's not an AoE encounter we are rarely the best or even second best tank. I'm not sure what there is to nerf. Hopefully they'll just buff some of the other classes AoE tanking abilities and then buff our single target tanking ability.


I did actually feel like I was the best tank when we 1-shotted Curator at first try last night...

And why buff our single-target tanking abilities? I mean ok, some more damage output would be nice, but that's what warriors are for right? If every tank class would be good at tanking everything, where would be the necessity of actually having more than one tanking class?
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Postby Widdox2 » Fri Jul 11, 2008 9:43 am

Romman wrote:
Fridmarr wrote:
Angella wrote:Blizz has buffed prot to the point where paladin tanks are awesome - especially for aoe tanking. Who else feels the nerf stick coming?


If it's not an AoE encounter we are rarely the best or even second best tank. I'm not sure what there is to nerf. Hopefully they'll just buff some of the other classes AoE tanking abilities and then buff our single target tanking ability.


I did actually feel like I was the best tank when we 1-shotted Curator at first try last night...

And why buff our single-target tanking abilities? I mean ok, some more damage output would be nice, but that's what warriors are for right? If every tank class would be good at tanking everything, where would be the necessity of actually having more than one tanking class?


Maybe because Warriors and druids are getting buffed in AE encounters.. Thats why I think they might buff our single target.
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Postby Fridmarr » Fri Jul 11, 2008 9:43 am

Romman wrote:
Fridmarr wrote:
Angella wrote:Blizz has buffed prot to the point where paladin tanks are awesome - especially for aoe tanking. Who else feels the nerf stick coming?


If it's not an AoE encounter we are rarely the best or even second best tank. I'm not sure what there is to nerf. Hopefully they'll just buff some of the other classes AoE tanking abilities and then buff our single target tanking ability.


I did actually feel like I was the best tank when we 1-shotted Curator at first try last night...

And why buff our single-target tanking abilities? I mean ok, some more damage output would be nice, but that's what warriors are for right? If every tank class would be good at tanking everything, where would be the necessity of actually having more than one tanking class?


Damage output is not our problem, it's more that we generally take the most damage. Making tanks equal has no effect on bringing more than one class, that is about utility. For instance, sunder, commanding shout, thunderclap are buffs brought by a warrior. LoTP, another battle rez and innervate are brought by Druids. We bring another blessing and possibly JoW. That said, the choice of who actually tanks the boss, is more about efficiency than utility, and so we are rarely the best choice.
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Postby Sloath » Fri Jul 11, 2008 9:47 am

Just to add some relevance to the proposed "buffing" of the other tank classes (sorce: www.mmo-champion.com) AOE tanking abilities.


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Postby Arcand » Fri Jul 11, 2008 9:48 am

What's the cooldown on Berserk? Or, why isn't it spammable?
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Postby moduspwnens » Fri Jul 11, 2008 9:49 am

Romman wrote:And why buff our single-target tanking abilities? I mean ok, some more damage output would be nice, but that's what warriors are for right? If every tank class would be good at tanking everything, where would be the necessity of actually having more than one tanking class?


Well, because a Holy Paladin with only 20-21 points in Prot in Prot gear can effectively do the only things we're really "required" for (Morogrim adds, Felmyst Adds, maybe Solarian adds). This puts us in the tough situation of being not as good as a warrior for single-target tanking, but our niche is much more effectively filled by someone who isn't really even Protection-specialized.

I won't even beg for a buff to our single-target tanking abilities. However, we do really need either THAT, or encounters designed specifically around our strengths. For example, rather than virtually every encounter being one or two hard-hitting guys (warrior and druid specialty), perhaps an encounter with several (6-8 ) moderately-heavy hitters (4-5k), with a crazy enrage timer like Brutallus. This would make guilds have to ask themselves, "Well, do we want to take five or six warriors and druids, or just two Paladins and have extra spots for DPS?"

I don't know, just a thought that probably wouldn't work anyway, but that's the issue. Perhaps the class needs to be developed more, but with the current encounter design, warriors reign supreme, so a lot of us think buffing our single-target abilities would be better.
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Postby Dragonzbane » Fri Jul 11, 2008 10:11 am

Romman wrote:And why buff our single-target tanking abilities? I mean ok, some more damage output would be nice, but that's what warriors are for right? If every tank class would be good at tanking everything, where would be the necessity of actually having more than one tanking class?


Why?

Because every class should be equally good at tanking a generic fight.

Maybe One slightly better at aspect X but worse at Y and in the middle at Z
One slightly better at aspect Z but worse at X and in the middle at Y
etc. But it all ends up equal.

The differences should come into play only when you hit a "niche" fight.
Then you'd want tank AB because of ability 1-2.
Or tank CD because of ability 3-4.

See?
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Postby Dorvan » Fri Jul 11, 2008 10:36 am

Fridmarr wrote:If it's not an AoE encounter we are rarely the best or even second best tank. I'm not sure what there is to nerf. Hopefully they'll just buff some of the other classes AoE tanking abilities and then buff our single target tanking ability.


Having seen all the content you've seen I still disagree with this assessment, but I'm really not up for going into that whole bit again.
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