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Tanking weapons in Sunwell

Kalecgos, Brutallus, Felmyst, M'uru, Entropius, Kil'jaeden

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Postby Lucit » Fri May 30, 2008 10:17 am

Katamai wrote:Any rogue getting DEL over Blade of Savagery or a sword like that is obviously so good at theorycraft that he's able to bend game mechanics and rules.


What the hell is a Blade of Savagery? lolrng

But apologize for pointing towards a problem. I guess saying "we're fine, warriors have it bad" is the trend nowadays. I guess our itemization is so amazing is that we don't need a proper tanking weapon.


You're pointing towards a problem that other tanking classes have as well.
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Postby Elsie » Fri May 30, 2008 10:23 am

Any rogue getting DEL over Blade of Savagery or a sword like that is obviously so good at theorycraft that he's able to bend game mechanics and rules.

Err, in general if 14 attk power = 1 dps, and 1 expertise = 1 hit rating, then the DEL has 112 attk power and 25 hit vs 15 hit, 44 attk pwr, 22 crit. ~80 attack power and 10 hit rating isnt a bad deal for 22 crit.
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Postby Katamai » Fri May 30, 2008 10:24 am

Lucit wrote:What the hell is a Blade of Savagery? lolrng

lolnotevenrng!

You're pointing towards a problem that other tanking classes have as well.


Yes indeed... warriors and druids don't have a single weapon tailored for prot/feral spec and they struggle with rogues/priests right?

We see a ton of threads about how prot warior stole rogue's weapon for his main spec or how a feral druid took priest's staff for tanking...

@ Elsie - i won't even try to disprove your maths but the fact that i haven't seen a single rogue with DBL over BoS speaks more to me than pure theorycraft. Unless you're saying all rogues are incompetent?

EDIT: And i just checked with rogues from my guild... noone would even think about using DBL instead of BoS.
Last edited by Katamai on Fri May 30, 2008 10:30 am, edited 1 time in total.
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Postby Lucit » Fri May 30, 2008 10:29 am

Elsie wrote:Err, in general if 14 attk power = 1 dps, and 1 expertise = 1 hit rating, then the DEL has 112 attk power and 25 hit vs 15 hit, 44 attk pwr, 22 crit. ~80 attack power and 10 hit rating isnt a bad deal for 22 crit.


Blade of Savagery wins because of speed. Combat Potency. And yes, our one rogue who has DEL would be using BoS if we'd seen more than one in the last... 8(?) months of farming Mother.
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Postby Lucit » Fri May 30, 2008 10:30 am

Katamai wrote:Yes indeed... warriors and druids don't have a single weapon tailored for prot/feral spec and they struggle with rogues/priests right?

We see a ton of threads about how prot warior stole rogue's weapon for his main spec or how a feral druid took priest's staff for tanking...


We had a pretty sad (app) prot warrior when a rogue took DEL over him. (It dropped again two weeks later, he looted it along with T6 belt and then xferred, lol.)
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Postby Splug » Fri May 30, 2008 10:34 am

Elsie wrote:
Any rogue getting DEL over Blade of Savagery or a sword like that is obviously so good at theorycraft that he's able to bend game mechanics and rules.

Err, in general if 14 attk power = 1 dps, and 1 expertise = 1 hit rating, then the DEL has 112 attk power and 25 hit vs 15 hit, 44 attk pwr, 22 crit. ~80 attack power and 10 hit rating isnt a bad deal for 22 crit.
The problem actually comes from the DEL's 1.5 speed to BoS's 1.4 speed. You lose out on energy procs (Combat Potency, if I recall the tallent name correctly) from offhand hits, and that ends up making the slower offhand a bit more borderline. Also, that effective AP from the higher dps doesn't reach your mainhand, only your offhand - thus it is only 3/8 as effective for white damage (halved for only hitting one weapon, then -25% due to offhand penalty after tallents). The thing to note is that expertise alters dodged sinister strikes that would be otherwise hit capped, so it is slightly better than the hit equivalent. Ultimately, these factors combine for a weapon that's probably a sidegrade. It's clear that Blizzard tried to make it a multi-purpose weapon, but they didn't quite make it. Instead, they ended up with something that's mediocre across the board, and the result is that prior itemization (Brutalizer, Blade of Savagery) is better or comparable. However, if the trend continues into WotLK (and Blizzard has implied it will) then the lack of "pureblood" weapons will result in a more direct competition.

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Postby Elsie » Fri May 30, 2008 10:42 am

My point was that it wasn't terrible compared to BoS, and a sidegrade is an appropriate label.

More direct competition in wotlk will be nice, but even as we've seen for DEL it slants toward tanking more than roguing. All the paladin weapons that do so are... daggers...
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Postby Splug » Fri May 30, 2008 10:58 am

I'd expect we start seeing a lot of 1.5-speed AGI/expertise/stam swords in WotLK. It's a very reasonable rogue/prot warrior compromise. Then again, with sunder and whatnot scaling to AP, I could see that getting worked into fast 1h's and still being viable for warrior tanking (STR would be better due to vitality, but that basically kills it for rogues).

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Postby Lore » Fri May 30, 2008 10:59 am

Katamai wrote:
Lore wrote:Paladins.


Obviously i fail at paladin tanking because i would never chose a warrior plate item over one with spell dmg. Only exception is when our equivalent is extremely badly itemized but it's kind of missing the point right?


http://www.wowhead.com/?item=32263
http://www.wowhead.com/?item=32521
http://www.wowhead.com/?item=34352

Just from T6+. Not to mention every tanking shield in the game, and the numerous cloaks, rings, and trinkets that we compete with Druids on as well as Warriors.

I don't understand how poor itemization is "missing the point." Isn't this whole conversation about poor itemization?

Also, although we do compete with Mages, Warlocks, Shadow Priests, and Elemental Shaman for our weapon slot, we are never competing with all 4 at once. We compete with Mages and Warlocks for swords; we compete with SPriests and Elemental Shaman for maces. In addition, those classes occasionally use daggers or staves over the swords and maces.

The point is you're making a big deal out of a very small one. It sounds more like you're just upset that we don't have guaranteed priority on the weapon slot.
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Postby Splug » Fri May 30, 2008 11:34 am

To be honest, the gap between the paladin offset tanking gear and warrior offset tanking gear in sunwell isn't that far off.

[item=34381]Threat through expertise[/item]
[item=34382]Threat through spellpower[/item]

Hypothetically, Felstrength really wouldn't be that bad for paladin tanking, and perhaps even superior for single target work, depending on your spellpower through other factors. Warriors do not see the same case in reverse: lose the expertise in exchange for nothing.

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Postby Elsie » Fri May 30, 2008 12:20 pm

I always kind of equated str/hit to spellpower. Expertise seems pretty equal in sunwell for both. In that regard, I'm really happy with the sunwell neck/cloak/ring.

In the gear forum we looked at the 'warrior' pants and 14 dodge rating vs some BV was the result I got from it, so they would be superior to me. The rest of the 'warrior' pieces are kind of fail for paladin.
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Postby Levantine » Fri May 30, 2008 12:29 pm

Dude, try being in Bloodlust (US), you have NOTHING to complain about, lol.
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Postby Katamai » Fri May 30, 2008 12:56 pm

Lore wrote:http://www.wowhead.com/?item=32263
http://www.wowhead.com/?item=32521
http://www.wowhead.com/?item=34352

Just from T6+. Not to mention every tanking shield in the game, and the numerous cloaks, rings, and trinkets that we compete with Druids on as well as Warriors.

Nothing on those says "warrior gear". It's more tanking neutral gear than anything except for the little fact that we lose more threat if we use those over our set gear than warriors do.

I don't understand how poor itemization is "missing the point." Isn't this whole conversation about poor itemization?

You're the one saying everything's fine.

Also, although we do compete with Mages, Warlocks, Shadow Priests, and Elemental Shaman for our weapon slot, we are never competing with all 4 at once. We compete with Mages and Warlocks for swords; we compete with SPriests and Elemental Shaman for maces. In addition, those classes occasionally use daggers or staves over the swords and maces.

And since there's a really wide selection of gear it really matter right? 1 mace and 1 sword, that's 2x2 classes we compete with.

Warriors on the other hand have rogues and dps warriors in the worst case scenario. Druid have... only themselves. And a little thing to notice - while the items we compete for are usually best in slot for both us and competing classes, they are NEVER best in slot for warriors and their competitors.

That alone makes a lot of difference.

The point is you're making a big deal out of a very small one. It sounds more like you're just upset that we don't have guaranteed priority on the weapon slot.

Yes Lore, that's exactly the problem. I qq because i don't get free loot and get prio on it even though we don't have a prio loot system in my guild.

Heavens forbid i am actually complaining about complete lack of prot paladin tanking (not threat) weapons and our awfully questionable itemization. I'm just another QQer without a clue ;)
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Postby Splug » Fri May 30, 2008 1:24 pm

Katamai wrote:
Lore wrote:http://www.wowhead.com/?item=32263
http://www.wowhead.com/?item=32521
http://www.wowhead.com/?item=34352

Just from T6+. Not to mention every tanking shield in the game, and the numerous cloaks, rings, and trinkets that we compete with Druids on as well as Warriors.

Nothing on those says "warrior gear". It's more tanking neutral gear than anything except for the little fact that we lose more threat if we use those over our set gear than warriors do.

Katamai wrote:
Lore wrote:
Katamai wrote:Oh and what class wants defensive plate besides warriors?


Paladins.
Obviously i fail at paladin tanking because i would never chose a warrior plate item over one with spell dmg. Only exception is when our equivalent is extremely badly itemized but it's kind of missing the point right?

Of course it doesn't say it's "warrior gear;" it's non-spellpower defensive gear, and the two classes compete for it. You asked for cases where that would be viable gear over the spellpower equivalent, and that was the answer.

EDIT: Ok, I guess you did change the question between the two quotes. It sounds like you're really trying to overspecify the scenario to prove a point though. Asking what "warrior gear" a paladin wants, and then saying it must be precisely tooled such that only a warrior wants it, is self-defeating.
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Last edited by Splug on Fri May 30, 2008 1:31 pm, edited 2 times in total.
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Postby Worldie » Fri May 30, 2008 1:25 pm

Kata i'd suggest you to change tone, that kind of tone is for WoW forum, refrain from this kind of childish reaction and don't force me to fix it.
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