Tanking weapons in Sunwell

Kalecgos, Brutallus, Felmyst, M'uru, Entropius, Kil'jaeden

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Postby Tekkel » Wed May 28, 2008 4:14 am

Aye, am also pretty happy my warrior MT turned around and let's me and the ferals tank do some more MTing.

The fact that some slots have hardly any viable gear choices is annoying but my main concern remains surviveability and threat output equal to other tanks. If the scaling in wotlk keeps being like this I'll just reroll main to my mage.
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Postby Splug » Wed May 28, 2008 9:38 am

Actually, what I was getting at was that anyone who bails on a guild over something as silly as a specific item's prioritization is a very sad, selfish person. That's an extremely poor display of loyalty, and I find it in very poor form to even encourage something like that. Is it fair to be put behind pickups or alts? No, but two wrongs do not make a right. Skipping the alt run is fair game and reasonable protest. Skipping a main raid would be pushing it. Leaving a guild over something like that would be a black mark that I would have to be fairly despirate to overlook on an application.

If I left my guild over something like that, I wouldn't even try to find another guild on my warrior. The market's flooded with prot warriors, and anyone with that kind of "my way or no way" history would be lucky to find a TK/SSC guild to recruit them, let alone the content they'd been working on.

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Postby Lucit » Wed May 28, 2008 10:05 am

Splug wrote:The market's flooded with prot warriors


It is? We've been trying to recruit a prot warrior for months....
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Postby Splug » Wed May 28, 2008 10:25 am

Lucit wrote:
Splug wrote:The market's flooded with prot warriors


It is? We've been trying to recruit a prot warrior for months....
I keep having to turn them away. Different situations on different servers I guess.

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Postby Dragonzbane » Wed May 28, 2008 11:15 am

Splug wrote:Every loot system has its flaws. If there was a perfect, universally acceptable setup, why aren't we all running it? I'll agree that being forced to pass a primary spec upgrade to a tryout is an odd call to make, but how much equipment did that guild not force you to pass? Is one controversial item really worth up and leaving over?


Hmm...

"Sorry Splug but we are going to give that Brutalizer to our new enhance shaman recruit who just started yesterday.

Yes, yes, I understand that the Brutalizer is an upgrade for you over your Mallet of the Tides but we really feel that the recruit should have it instead.

We all understand that you've been a valued member for a long time and things would have been much harder without you.

And yes we do appreciate you leading alt runs through Hyjal, just not enough to give you this upgrade over someone who may leave next week."


An odd call?
Odd call?

No, no way in hell is that an odd call, it's pure insanity.

The bottomline is that no one should be forced to pass on anything.
If it's an upgrade for your main spec and you have the DKP or win the roll or outbid the other people then it should be yours.

If you are getting forced to pass then there's something wrong with that gear policy or RL or GM or CL that need to be changed.


Splug wrote:Is one controversial item really worth up and leaving over?


It's not about that one item, it's about being disrespected by your guild.
Last edited by Dragonzbane on Wed May 28, 2008 11:28 am, edited 2 times in total.
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Postby Cakes » Wed May 28, 2008 11:15 am

Lucit, I'll trade you a geared warriors for resto shaman.
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Postby Splug » Wed May 28, 2008 11:24 am

Your example would be more appropriate to use the Longblade, since rogues can actually equip it. ;) But it's a much better 1:1 correspondance: they're both minor upgrade threat weapons that the tanking class does not get full use of all the stats on. And while I wouldn't agree with a call like that, I don't think it would be nearly justification for leaving a guild that has taken me from 8/8 Valor to 8/8 Onslaught.

... And yeah Cakes, if you find a good place to pick up resto shaman, let me know.

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Postby Mortehl » Wed May 28, 2008 11:25 am

Cakes wrote:Lucit, I'll trade you a geared warriors for resto shaman.


WTB Resto Shaman. PST. Paying in the form of priests. 2 for 1 special. (Fucking conquerer to boot!)
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Postby Dragonzbane » Wed May 28, 2008 11:40 am

Splug wrote:Your example would be more appropriate to use the Longblade, since rogues can actually equip it. ;) But it's a much better 1:1 correspondance: they're both minor upgrade threat weapons that the tanking class does not get full use of all the stats on.



Well I changed it to shaman so that it would equate better but the Longblade or Unbreakable Will would work as far as a rogue is concerned.

Where you logic fails is that for a Paladin ToC is the be all end all PVE upgrade. Sure you could go the S4 through respecing to holy or ret if you're really, really lucky but the majority here probably would be able to go that route. A lock or mage does have a few other options and would have a much easier time running arena in most cases.

Sure, I might not get a whole lot of use from the Crit on my ToC but it isn't a wasted stat like the Spell Haste on RoM would be.


Splug wrote:And while I wouldn't agree with a call like that, I don't think it would be nearly justification for leaving a guild that has taken me from 8/8 Valor to 8/8 Onslaught.

-Splug


On the opposite side of things:
Your guild that brought you from 8/8 Valor to 8/8 Onslaught should have a little more respect for you than to force you to pass to a recruit.
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Postby Splug » Wed May 28, 2008 12:19 pm

The argument of "best-in-slot" versus "best use of an item" is not new, and there is no right answer. One way or the other, someone has to lose the debate, and what each guild decides is their solution is a matter of generalized priorities, not disrespect to a single member.

Let's flash back to when my guild established its position on this topic: [item=18805]This weapon[/item] was the best hunter offhand in the game back in Molten Core. 1% crit and 20 AP, and you can use not one but two +15 agi enchants! Arrows and gunshots are just that much better with something like this at your hip! And then, there were the seal fate rogues... who saw a 10 DPS jump in their offhand damage, on top of the above effects. Best in slot for the hunter, but a rogue would see so much more use from it. It is a much bigger extreme of "wasted itemization," but it makes the stance easier to see and understand.

Now, that's not to say I agree with the call that was made. But I certainly can see the basis for it, have made similar calls myself (albeit in a system that allows 'off-priority' bids to still win out, just at a penalty), and find trying to turn a generalized stance on loot prioritization into personal disrespect to be near-sighted and selfish. If there was something else at work here, that's another matter entirely, but I think that the "life must be perfect or go somewhere else" call gets made entirely too often.

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Postby Elsie » Wed May 28, 2008 1:25 pm

I don't necessarily think that corresponds. ToC is the best in slot for us, and raises the threat cap while we're tanking to increase all the raid's dps.

We are not arguing that the first ToC should go to a paladin. That'd be ok, weird, but ok. When you're starting out BT/Hyjal that makes tons of sense.

We're arguing if you're in sunwell you should be easily get shots at a Zhardoom / sunwell staff / s3, or at least easier than a paladin. Meanwhile, the paladin is stuck with the equivalent to the Najentus Dagger.
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Postby Katamai » Wed May 28, 2008 3:13 pm

Problem is no one is even in the position to dispute warriors getting their weapon, let alone it being the best in slot (like ToC was for some classes).

Just shows that while the already established and most pampered class with no need to prove itself has it brain-dead easy, we have to struggle with shitty itemization on top of all the prejudice, bad game design and crappy class design.

I really hope WotLK changes this otherwise i'm either rerolling or quitting. Being frustrated to death by being mana burned on Twins gauntlet, getting people killed due to that and being the regular joke because someone didn't sheep the mob before it burned my mana and mana i got from a pot is infuriating to say the least.

Which is why when i see warriors QQing how they are underpowered and how game design prefers paladin tanks makes me wanna smash their faces with that pink, lollypop abomination i call my mace <_<
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Postby Ryu » Wed May 28, 2008 5:54 pm

Dragonzbane wrote:
Splug wrote:And while I wouldn't agree with a call like that, I don't think it would be nearly justification for leaving a guild that has taken me from 8/8 Valor to 8/8 Onslaught.

-Splug


On the opposite side of things:
Your guild that brought you from 8/8 Valor to 8/8 Onslaught should have a little more respect for you than to force you to pass to a recruit.


Exactly.
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Postby Kayoto » Thu May 29, 2008 10:05 am

If a guild I was in, that I had been in for a long time, forced me to pass on a direct upgrade for a goddamn recruit I can guarantee you I'd walk out that day just on principle (I really wouldn't care about the actual gear).

If you're a long-standing member with good attendance, and the item ACTUALLY benefits you, and you want it, then someone who is on trial getting it over you is wrong on every level imaginable. We're not talking about "oh no he gave it to this warlock member who's only been with us 3 months compared to my 6" or "wtf this mage is taking it I DESERVE IT MOAR BECUZ I R TANK," we're talking about a person who has zero obligation to the guild, and hasn't put in nearly the amount of effort towards forwarding the guild's progress at all.

I can kind of understand your half of the debate, Splug, but in the exact situation that the guy was in, I just don't think it applies at all. :?
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Postby Dragonzbane » Thu May 29, 2008 11:09 am

Splug wrote:and find trying to turn a generalized stance on loot prioritization into personal disrespect to be near-sighted and selfish. If there was something else at work here, that's another matter entirely, but I think that the "life must be perfect or go somewhere else" call gets made entirely too often.

-Splug


Well, maybe in your world everything is all fine and dandy but it's obviously not for him/her.

How could you even not read into that scenerio a lack of respect?


Why give loot to a Recruit over a raiding member?
1) Main spec for the recruit and Offspec for the raider
2) The raider announced a future LoA

Those are the only valid options.
Neither of those options is valid in this instance.


So what else could is be?
a) Lack of understanding of the Paladin class by the person in charge
b) Selfishness by the person in charge
c) Classism by the person in charge
d) Lack of respect for the Paladin by the person in charge
e) Personal favoritism by the person in charge

None of those are positive answers in any way shape or form and only "a)" has any hope of being worked through.

I'm sorry there's just no other way to look at it with the info provided.
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