Tanking weapons in Sunwell

Kalecgos, Brutallus, Felmyst, M'uru, Entropius, Kil'jaeden

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Postby Katamai » Fri May 30, 2008 1:40 pm

Worldie wrote:Kata i'd suggest you to change tone, that kind of tone is for WoW forum, refrain from this kind of childish reaction and don't force me to fix it.


Well i apologize Worldie but i'm kinda sick of always hearing "we're fine, our itemization is fine, everything's perfect".

It just seems every time someone mentions a flaw people start making excuses for it. Situation with both weapons and gloves is rather clear yet instead of admitting it, people pull excuses like "use warrior/caster gear".
I'm sorry but i can't be satisfied with what i see as an obvious itemization flaw and if that is not welcome here, guess i'll take my leave.
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Postby Worldie » Fri May 30, 2008 1:46 pm

Noone said our itemization is perfect, but is not even as terrible as you define it.
As some pointed out, spelldamage is not necessarly our only threat stat.
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Postby Lucit » Fri May 30, 2008 3:24 pm

Katamai wrote:
Worldie wrote:Kata i'd suggest you to change tone, that kind of tone is for WoW forum, refrain from this kind of childish reaction and don't force me to fix it.


Well i apologize Worldie but i'm kinda sick of always hearing "we're fine, our itemization is fine, everything's perfect".

It just seems every time someone mentions a flaw people start making excuses for it. Situation with both weapons and gloves is rather clear yet instead of admitting it, people pull excuses like "use warrior/caster gear".
I'm sorry but i can't be satisfied with what i see as an obvious itemization flaw and if that is not welcome here, guess i'll take my leave.


It seems like you're less concerned about itemization and more concerned about getting priority on the items you want. I think that's mostly what people have a problem with. Everyone has to compete for items, that's how loot works, and it's no more a problem for paladins than for anyone else.

For your specific items (weapon/gloves);

Weapon: Warriors are coming into Sunwell with an ilvl141 tanking weapon, druids are probably using a Pillar of Mediocrity (also ilvl141), and paladins are hopefully using ToC (ilvl151). Warriors clearly need an upgrade and they get one, druids get a kitty dps staff, and paladins (who are least in need of the upgrade) get nothing. Fine. Whatever.

Gloves: I'm still convinced (and hopeful) that the lack of prot paladin gloves is an oversight. The BFGs are still bugged (only ilvl156 epic in the entire game). Also, it's worth noting that they have no threat stats for either warriors or paladins, so it's not really all that unfair.
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Postby Lore » Fri May 30, 2008 3:38 pm

Katamai wrote:
Lore wrote:http://www.wowhead.com/?item=32263
http://www.wowhead.com/?item=32521
http://www.wowhead.com/?item=34352

Just from T6+. Not to mention every tanking shield in the game, and the numerous cloaks, rings, and trinkets that we compete with Druids on as well as Warriors.

Nothing on those says "warrior gear". It's more tanking neutral gear than anything except for the little fact that we lose more threat if we use those over our set gear than warriors do.


So then your argument includes that Warriors have no Sunwell gear at all? I have trouble seeing how that is at all a better scenario, so please remind me exactly what you're trying to prove here.

I don't understand how poor itemization is "missing the point." Isn't this whole conversation about poor itemization?

You're the one saying everything's fine.


I don't recall saying that. You must not have seen my 30-page thread on the 2.4 Test Realm forums begging for a Sunwell Tankadin weapon.

What I *am* doing is making the most out of the situation we've been put in, and doing my best to be constructive. I, for one, am not content to just lay back and complain when things aren't optimal.

Also, although we do compete with Mages, Warlocks, Shadow Priests, and Elemental Shaman for our weapon slot, we are never competing with all 4 at once. We compete with Mages and Warlocks for swords; we compete with SPriests and Elemental Shaman for maces. In addition, those classes occasionally use daggers or staves over the swords and maces.

And since there's a really wide selection of gear it really matter right? 1 mace and 1 sword, that's 2x2 classes we compete with.

Warriors on the other hand have rogues and dps warriors in the worst case scenario. Druid have... only themselves. And a little thing to notice - while the items we compete for are usually best in slot for both us and competing classes, they are NEVER best in slot for warriors and their competitors.

That alone makes a lot of difference.[/quote]

Sure. But it's not even remotely the end of the world, which is why I said...

The point is you're making a big deal out of a very small one. It sounds more like you're just upset that we don't have guaranteed priority on the weapon slot.

Yes Lore, that's exactly the problem. I qq because i don't get free loot and get prio on it even though we don't have a prio loot system in my guild.

Heavens forbid i am actually complaining about complete lack of prot paladin tanking (not threat) weapons and our awfully questionable itemization. I'm just another QQer without a clue ;)


QQ'ers with clues are still just QQ'ing. If this is a big enough deal for you to be whining on forums about it, I suggest you try the World of Warcraft Suggestion Forums. Maintankadin is not the place for it.
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Postby Fridmarr » Fri May 30, 2008 3:40 pm

I have a hard time buying the Ilevel comparison justification. With stats we don't use, we don't get a the benefit of that Ilevel. I think it's quite reasonable to see weapons we are supposed to be using as caster weapons with wasted stats for us, and feel a little miffed there's no tankadin weapons with wasted stats for casters.

Ultimately though, it's all a bit irrelevant, what is of value is the net result. I don't think any of the tanking classes are having gamebreaking threat issues, so the only question then becomes about mitigation, and the reason we are at times not chosen to tank is typically because of mitigation. A weapon slot with stats moved from spell crit/hit/haste to mitigation stats would be welcomed for sure since that helps with a weakness. Then there's simply the perception problem of blizzard choosing not take make the effort for whatever reason.

It's not something I can get too worked up over, on the other hand there no good justification at all that we don't have a more tankadin centric weapon path.
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Postby Lucit » Fri May 30, 2008 3:45 pm

Fridmarr wrote:I have a hard time buying the Ilevel comparison justification.


Agreed, I'm mostly trying to see the situation from Blizzard's perspective. As Lore pointed out, it's certainly not productive to sit here and complain about the lack of a prot paladin weapon - this just isn't the appropriate forum for that type of discussion.

Here we need to work with what's available, even if that includes a highly-contested item from a raid zone you have to pug, and a bunch of expertise gear. :P
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Postby Katamai » Fri May 30, 2008 4:42 pm

Lucit wrote:It seems like you're less concerned about itemization and more concerned about getting priority on the items you want. I think that's mostly what people have a problem with. Everyone has to compete for items, that's how loot works, and it's no more a problem for paladins than for anyone else.


Wow! You saw me through! Awesome deduction skills!

We keep seeing people who get pissed off/gquit because they are not allowed to spend their hard earned DKP on certain pieces simply because it's also best in slot for other classes and right or wrong, giving it to other specs is perceived as more beneficial. Paladins are the only tanking class where RL has to get in a conflicting situation that shouldn't be there. He has to decide whether to upgrade his DPSer or his tank. No other tanking class has that problem as their situation is pretty straight-forward. And any half-competent RL will have to evaluate the situation instead of relying on loot prio or class/spec before making a decision. This is a unique situation so don't tell me how "all" classes go through it.

Prot warrior weapons go to prot warriors or DPS warriors for their off spec if mains have it. No rogues will want Butalizer or Unbreakable Will.
Feral druid weapons go to ferals or rest/balance is mains have it. No resto/boomkin will want a Pillar of Meh.
Caster weapons can go to main spec tankadins, caster DPSers or off spec hybrids and both main specs want it equally bad. As you can see, it's far from the same situation.

And please, can we drop the "QQing cause he wants loot prio" story already? I had one situation where a warrior was given Gruul's shield for offspec while i still had Shield of Impenetrable Darkness and guess how i solved it? /gquit
I'm a big boy and can take of myself but luckily, my current guild is pretty decent bunch of people with no loot prio and pretty open minded GM/Officers so luckily, that isn't even an issue.

2 ToCs dropped when i was present and i passed them for a lock/mage as it was more beneficial to the raid than if i got it and i hoped Sunwell would bring a change. Problem is that now with SWP, they are getting replaced while we don't even have an option.
Only half-usable item there is RoM which is a sidegrade to HoJ and far from an upgrade to ToC. On the other hand warriors get another viable option in DEL.

THAT is my real issue with this whole situation. You can either pester your guild to do MH (unlikely to work especially in summer) or you can struggle with PUGs which can be very time consuming or very rarely successful.

For your specific items (weapon/gloves);

Weapon: Warriors are coming into Sunwell with an ilvl141 tanking weapon, druids are probably using a Pillar of Mediocrity (also ilvl141), and paladins are hopefully using ToC (ilvl151). Warriors clearly need an upgrade and they get one, druids get a kitty dps staff, and paladins (who are least in need of the upgrade) get nothing. Fine. Whatever.

I'm guessing you're accounting for stats on ToC that, according to a thread posted by Dorvan, we have very little use of?
And again, ToC is not a tanking weapon, it's a threat weapon.
As someone has said, i wouldn't base my evidence of ilvls.

Gloves: I'm still convinced (and hopeful) that the lack of prot paladin gloves is an oversight. The BFGs are still bugged (only ilvl156 epic in the entire game). Also, it's worth noting that they have no threat stats for either warriors or paladins, so it's not really all that unfair.

I agree but the issue is, is the loss of 18 str on Onslaught Handguards equal to loss of threat we get from using BFG over LB Handguards?
If you remember how "well" our threat scales in end game you'll see why i'm so reluctant to swallow the "use BFG you QQer" as a solution.

@ Lore - i wouldn't say having no upgrades for certain slots and a certain spec is a "very small" issue. You can bet if there wasn't a warrior weapon in game they would raise hell and get it. But us paladins are "taking the best out of the situation" right? Every time i started a thread on official forums on a subject similar to this one i would get a bunch of know-it-alls giving me the same exact "use caster weapons/warrior gear" replies. It seems to me people expect things will magically change if we just sit here, close our eyes, plug our ears and keep "using the best out of the situation". We are pretty much, the only spec in game that has been ignored for certain issues over and over again and instead of fighting for it, we keep waiting for that magical day that never came.
Look at ret paladins before the whole brouhaha and now. They went from red headed stepchildren of the paladin class to being probably the strongest and more desired spec.

I spent days writing my Compilation of prot paladin issues for 2.1, got 4-5 blue replies in that thread, got 24-25 pages and yet while our health issues got sorted out, nothing else seemed to matter to Blizzard.

I guess i misunderstood the point of maintankadin. I thought we were supposed to have an active discussion here, not go around slapping each other on the back and telling each other how awesome we are. You say i'm QQing yet you haven't actually shown me where i was so blindly mistaken. And are you using the "loot whore QQer" to provoke me?
Cause it certainly doesn't add anything to the discussion or how to solve it.
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Postby Elsie » Fri May 30, 2008 5:20 pm

I don't really care about not having a glove upgrade since I want to keep my 4pc, anyway. Or, if I want more avoidance, I can use t6 shoulders and BFGs with maybe a 15 tps loss. No gloves sucks but is hardly game breaking...
..and I don't see how this got to 8 pages.

In terms of stats if 15 stam = 12 spell dmg, we lose 11 stam and gain 30 spell dmg going to Reign of Misery.
If we lose 34 spell dmg and gain 27 stam+avoidance going to BFGs, I'd say paladins overall win out.

Personally I'd be happy to give up 4 spell damage for a bit of avoidance and 16 possible stam.

...or, if you prefer, you can gem BFGs with 12 spell damage and 5 defense / 7 stam. They still come out to 77 stam 12 spell dmg vs 59 stam 34 spell dmg.
Last edited by Elsie on Fri May 30, 2008 5:26 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Postby Nicki » Fri May 30, 2008 5:25 pm

Elsie wrote:I don't really care about not having a glove upgrade since I want to keep my 4pc, anyway. Or, if I want more avoidance, I can use t6 shoulders and BFGs with maybe a 15 tps loss. No gloves sucks but is hardly game breaking...
..and I don't see how this got to 8 pages.

In terms of stats if 15 stam = 12 spell dmg, we lose 11 stam and gain 30 spell dmg going to Reign of Misery.
If we lose 34 spell dmg and gain 27 stam+avoidance going to BFGs, I'd say paladins overall win out.


hardly game breaking, does any other class spec not have a t6.5 glove???
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Postby Elsie » Fri May 30, 2008 5:28 pm

hardly game breaking, does any other class spec not have a t6.5 glove???

Not that I know of, but my statement is NOT having 6.5 gloves is hardly game breaking since EVERYONE except maybe some healers want their 4pc.
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Postby Lucit » Fri May 30, 2008 6:15 pm

Katamai wrote:And again, ToC is not a tanking weapon, it's a threat weapon.


The Kalecgos sword and Twins staff are also threat weapons, not tanking weapons.
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Postby Katamai » Fri May 30, 2008 6:23 pm

Lucit wrote:The Kalecgos sword and Twins staff are also threat weapons, not tanking weapons.


Which still leaves warriors with The Sun Eater, King's Defender, Mallet of Tides, UW and Brutalizer, druids with Illhoof staff, trash staff from SSC, Pillar of Meh or even badge staff, and paladins have... Crystalforged Sword?
I may have screwed up with druids staves (feral tank itemization is not my strongest side) but you get the picture about defensive weapons.
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Postby Lore » Fri May 30, 2008 9:49 pm

Yes, Warriors have tons of weapons. No one is disagreeing with that.

Yes, we have a very small selection of sub-optimal weapons. No one is disagreeing with that, either.

This leaves, off the top of my head, three acceptable courses for the discussion:

#1: Discussion with the goal of determining how severe the issue actually is (which has been happening to some degree in this thread).

#2: Discussion of how best to deal with this situation.

#3: Discussion of what can and should be done about it.

The conversation you seem to be pushing the discussion towards is simply "this is bad, let's bitch about how bad it is," as evidenced by your responses to anyone who tries to find a silver lining. Whenever someone presents an alternative perspective, your immediate reply is something to the effect of "You're wrong, this is the worst thing Blizzard has ever done." Whining about it doesn't help anyone, and as a moderator of a forum intended to help people, I take issue with that.

We've been dealt a hand, and it's not a very good one. We can figure out how to play it to our advantage, or we can fold. Personally, I prefer to just work with what I've got.
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Postby Fastjack » Fri May 30, 2008 10:09 pm

@Katamai:
The thing is: You want equality.

The only thing we can tell you, and you know about it, is...There is actually no equallity, and thats all this discussion is about.

You question about, if its right to say: "Okay, we work around it, like we did since start of BC." Thats okay.

But keep in mind. We started with a broken class (castbug). We had BIG disadvantages in important fields, and thats the main reason maintankadin came up that big.

Tankadines around the world started to search for sources of knowhow, how they can "work around it". They wanted to interact with people, that face the same problems.

I for myself, see the problems we face today, more as luxury problems, cause i had a few month not knowing, if i am valuable as a maintank in the upcoming month. The problems we face today, may include itemisation problems and maybe others, but they`re simply not that fundamental.

The options we have ARE unequal in some cases, compared to others.
Its a fact that Blizz is not gonna adress this, in this expansion.

You can go now, buy some TNT, and blow the Blizz headoffice, but thats gonna change nothing. They change things when they wanna change them. Simple as that.

Your anger on this case will take you nowhere, and there are only limited options to affect the way its going.

In fact i have seen a few people burn out on similar cases, mostly retadines.

Hopefully things will change in WotLK, but nobody can say today.
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Postby Worldie » Sat May 31, 2008 4:24 am

Fastjack wrote:In fact i have seen a few people burn out on similar cases, mostly retadines.

Actually, they got threat reduction.
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