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Kalecgos, Brutallus, Felmyst, M'uru, Entropius, Kil'jaeden

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Postby Splug » Thu Apr 17, 2008 10:07 am

Kitara wrote:
Duzzit wrote:you do realise that not only us get the debuff for -25% right?


Yes, but we only got a 30% shield block instead of 75%. Meaning now we get unblocked attacks even when holy shield is up.

Do you know what happens to shield block charges when a boss dual wields and a warrior only has ~50% avoidance tops? The first barrage Brutallus throws eats my shield block. After that I'm riding the extra damage intake as well.

Kitara wrote:
Duzzit wrote:further more, bring a dps warrior for the debuffs,


I find it unrealistic to have a damage dealing warrior following you through each portal to fight and tank the demon.

On Kallecgos, most strategies involve 3 tanks. I refresh my thunderclap/demo shout on my way to the portal, and the fury warrior does the same. Uptime's not 100%, that's true, but it's not half bad either.
Kitara wrote:i did say that the warriors debuffs are. of cause you could make a dps warrior apply those..but
how much dps will be lost? 400? and the benefit?

For Brutallus, pick up sanctified crusader; our prot paladin has it, and it contributes a non-trivial damage increase. That'll more than compensate the raid for your fury warrior burning ~40 rage per 30 seconds to refresh some debuffs. And again, that's assuming you're the only tank. You could always run warrior/paladin on Brut, and then it's a nonissue.

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Postby Cakes » Thu Apr 17, 2008 2:08 pm

To add to what Splug said about Kalecgos: it's true that sometimes you won't have debuffs, you'll just have to deal with it. Ideally, you're rotating in such a manner that when you hit the demon realm, there is another tank already down there debuffing the demon, some of which will remain after he leaves. The demon is going to stun you however, something that debuffs won't change. You won't dodge, you won't parry, you won't block, just like any other tank.

You're looking at it from the point that we're worse tanks because we take more damage. The proper way to see it is that regardless of class, as a tank, you're going to get demolished. Things in Sunwell just hit way, way too hard to have 4% be your deciding difference in tanks. 4% less of 24k damage is still dead tank.
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Postby Lucit » Thu Apr 17, 2008 2:57 pm

Cakes wrote:You're looking at it from the point that we're worse tanks because we take more damage. The proper way to see it is that regardless of class, as a tank, you're going to get demolished. Things in Sunwell just hit way, way too hard to have 4% be your deciding difference in tanks. 4% less of 24k damage is still dead tank.


Indeed. We started using a druid on Felmyst because the corrosion/auto was occasionally killing me. Druid died just as much, which would've made me feel better except for the part where we were still wiping. :P
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Postby Kitara » Thu Apr 17, 2008 4:18 pm

The replies so far haven't really convinced me and I still don't see any advantages so far... but then I'm not really that far into sunwell... let's see :P
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Postby knaughty » Thu Apr 17, 2008 5:30 pm

We're past Illidan, but haven't even got to Kacelgos, so this is theory, but for Brutallus:

• Warrior brings critical debuffs, but has lowest threat if tanking. Debuffs can easily be covered by DPS warrior.
• Druid has best mitigation.
• Paladin brings +3% crit to entire raid (yes, even tank specced). Judgment can easily be covered by DPS Paladin, but not Holy. Paladin should have highest threat as a tank, and take the first rotation.

• Burst threat on the pull is a huge deal. Paladin wins.

So there are critical debuffs required from both paladin and warrior, either of which can be covered by DPS or tank specced versions. Bubble-taunt is actually BETTER than Shield Wall for Brute, because you last longer after the enrage.

By far the more important issue than which two tanks you bring is correctly balancing (read: Stacking the hell out of) the raid for perfect composition.

If I was raid leading it, I'd just take my two best geared tanks, regardless of class, and tell them: Min-max spec for Brute.
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Postby Rorshach » Thu Apr 17, 2008 7:03 pm

Splug wrote:For Brutallus, pick up sanctified crusader; our prot paladin has it, and it contributes a non-trivial damage increase. That'll more than compensate the raid for your fury warrior burning ~40 rage per 30 seconds to refresh some debuffs. And again, that's assuming you're the only tank. You could always run warrior/paladin on Brut, and then it's a nonissue.
-Splug


This should be posted on the Brutallus thread, but this is the one I am replying to specifically.

So hey Splug, I thought that Angry doesn't run with a prot pally on Brutallus, you use a feral druid, or at least you tried with your pally, and it didn't work, correct?

We'll be trying Brutallus tonight (assuming we kill Kaelcgos for the second time) and I will get to sit on the sidelines for a feral druid/warrior combo. If the druid fails then I may get to come in, but most likely they'll just keep plugging away as I believe that Faerie Fire/Mangle will provide a higher DPS boost than Imp. JotCrusader, unless my understanding of their buffs/debuffs is flawed.

I don't mind sitting because Encore has let me tank everything and anything I can, even progression tanking our first Illidan kill with a T4 helm, so I can't hog the limelight all the time. That being said, of course I'd love to progression tank non-nerfed content such as this (BT/MH obviously having been nerfed long before we cleared it 4 months ago).

Due to discussions on here and EJ forums I am getting a Nightfall made for me because of how often I OT or aggro-taunt switch, in which case it may make a difference.

For my TPS to be as hardcore as Digitalkill's or a feral druid I would have to have the Ret pally in my group which would wreck his DPS synergy with the melee group and Brutallus is all about the DPS synergy.

This is the group we are running with:

Group 1
Warrior tank
Healer
Healer
Resto Shaman
Lock

Group 2
Rogue
Rogue
Enhance Shammy
Ret pally
Arms Warrior

Group 3
Lock
Lock
Mage
Elemental Shammy
Spriest

Group 4
Spriest
Healer
Healer
Healer
Healer

Group 5
Feral druid tank
Resto Shaman
Hunter
Hunter
Hunter


If I get to come in we would run with this setup, which includes little to none melee DPS.

G1
Warrior Tank
Healer
Healer
Pally Tank
Lock

G2
Mage
Mage
Mage
RestoShaman
RestoShaman

G3
Elemental Shammy
Lock
Boomkin
Mage
Spriest

G4
Spriest
Healer
Healer
Healer
Lock

G5
Ret Pally
Enhance Shammy
Hunter
Hunter
BM Hunter

Comments, suggestions?
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Postby Cakes » Fri Apr 18, 2008 1:27 am

I'm confused by the lack of the best single-target dps in the game, but to each their own. For the second raid setup you posted, I'd swap the lock in with the healers and spriest for one of the mages in with the resto shaman. Lock gets totems, mage gets mana return.

If you're not taking any more melee than what you are (still puzzling), have all those hunters stay BM, rather than a token survival hunter and BM hunters around him.
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Postby fiorina » Fri Apr 18, 2008 5:10 am

Knaughty wrote:We're past Illidan, but haven't even got to Kacelgos, so this is theory, but for Brutallus:

• Warrior brings critical debuffs, but has lowest threat if tanking.


Just to clarify this BS. We killed Brutallus 30 seconds before enrage this week, no threat issues whatsover for warrior. No shaman in his group either. We might have higher threat, but unless your warriors are slacking, there is no urgent need for it in this fight.

http://wowwebstats.com/fmdkgvi2f6rcc?s=11422-11755
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Postby Eliane » Fri Apr 18, 2008 8:51 am

I tanked Kalecgos on our progression kill and I am tanking Brutallus on our progression attempts. In my opinion, the class doesnt really matter all that much on Brutallus because ALL tanks can die in less than one second when things go wrong. If you have the gear for it, you can tank it just as good as a warrior.

I maintank Sunwell along with a warrior because we are simply the best tanks we have in the guild. We've always chosen skill of player of class.

And for those worried about threat, well, our warlocks go all out from start in this fight. That should tell you something about the threat we can put out and I have, in all honesty, yet to see a druid put out the amount of threat we do here.
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Postby Splug » Fri Apr 18, 2008 10:59 am

Rorshach wrote:So hey Splug, I thought that Angry doesn't run with a prot pally on Brutallus, you use a feral druid, or at least you tried with your pally, and it didn't work, correct?

That's correct, I tank with a feral druid for this fight. There were two major reasons. First, as already stated:
Knaughty wrote:If I was raid leading it, I'd just take my two best geared tanks, regardless of class, and tell them: Min-max spec for Brute.

I'd argue druids have an edge as a tank over warriors/paladins, but in my guild, I have a gear lead over the other three tanks. So we used druid/best_geared_nondruid. Secondly... Omen was bugged, and we were paranoid about threat concerns. Not getting omen updated after RD was a fairly large worry, given our warlocks' history whenever Omen disliked us. Ultimately, the fight demands everyone full throttle damage. You can't afford to lose damage due to a threat cap, the tanks just have to either step it up or swap gear to allow for more threat generation if the damage is overshooting. In the words of one of my offtanks: "The only threat meter you need is /assist boss."

Also, we've had a retribution paladin available the last two kill runs to fulfill the JotC role, so ultimately sunders/tc/demo vs jotc was a wash: dps could fill either job. I'm not saying paladin tanks are the be-all-end-all tank for the fight, I'm just saying paladin vs warrior is pretty much dead even. Both will generate amazing threat, in my experience better than the druid (though again, our druid was a bit behind on equipment at our first Brut kill, so he couldn't afford to overitemize threat). Take whichever one is geared better and fits your raid ballance. Druids beat us both out for tanking capacity due to being able to time barkskin to cover one or two stomps, off-duty dps, and sheer effective mitigation during stomp. You'll want one druid as a damage sink, one warrior-or-paladin as a threat generator.

Rorshach wrote:We'll be trying Brutallus tonight (assuming we kill Kaelcgos for the second time) and I will get to sit on the sidelines for a feral druid/warrior combo.
Zenge said you smoked him again last night; congrats by the way!
Rorshach wrote:If the druid fails then I may get to come in, but most likely they'll just keep plugging away as I believe that Faerie Fire/Mangle will provide a higher DPS boost than Imp. JotCrusader, unless my understanding of their buffs/debuffs is flawed.
I didn't crunch the numbers, but it would depend on how many physical damage you have. LotP is likely a bigger aid than mangle in my mind, but either way it's a lot of donated damage from the tank - and catform damage doesn't quite justify a fulltime dps spot to keep those debuffs up as well as arms, fury, or ret would. EDIT: Guilds with a ballance druid really don't lose much for not having a feral tank. They can keep up faerie fire, so the armor is still removed. The additional 3% hit raidwide as well as 2% miss on the boss more than compensate for losing mangle, and LotP vs Moonkin Aura is kinda a wash.

Rorshach wrote:For my TPS to be as hardcore as Digitalkill's or a feral druid I would have to have the Ret pally in my group which would wreck his DPS synergy with the melee group and Brutallus is all about the DPS synergy.
I disagree; our paladin did fine on threat, even according to the bugged omen. You'd be amazed how much you can kick out against demons that dual wield when you have a -25% avoidance penalty. It's eerily similar to Prince in Karazhan.

-Splug
Last edited by Splug on Fri Apr 18, 2008 11:28 am, edited 1 time in total.
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Postby Splug » Fri Apr 18, 2008 11:24 am

I talked to Zenge a week or two ago and it sounds like you guys already had some fairly solid plans for what you want to do. But for shits and grins, I can come up with the following as an "includes a paladin tank" option by cross-referencing your two listed group configs. G5 has a dead slot with a healer "just kind of there," but otherwise everything looks fairly solid.
Code: Select all
G1: tanks    G2: casters  G3: melee
ProtWarrior  RestShaman   EnhaShaman
ProtPaladin  HolyPaladin  RetrPaladin
AfflWarlock  HolyPriest   ArmsWarrior
RestDruid    DestWarlock  ____Rogue
RestShaman   DestWarlock  ____Rogue
*SoE/WoA/Mana*WoA/Mana    *WF/SoE/Mana
*Blood Pact  *Concentrat'n*Sanctity
*Commanding               *BattleShout
*Devotion                 *Unleashed Rage
*Tree of Life
G4: casters  G5: hunters
ElemShaman   BM__Hunter
BoomDruid    BM__Hunter
____Mage     ????Hunter
____Mage     RestShaman
ShdwPriest   ????Healer
*VE/VT       *FI, FI, possibly FI
*MoonkinAura *GoA/Mana
*WoA/Mana/ToW

Raidwide Debuffs: Sunder, Demo, Thunderclap, Blood Frenzy, Imp. Faerie fire, Insect Swarm, Imp. JotC, JoW, JoL, Shadow weaving, Misery, Shadow Embrace, Imp. Shadowbolt X3, CoR, CoE, CoS, Scorpid Sting, Imp. Hunter's Mark, Possibly Expose Weakness


EDIT: Hrm, I'm not sure if you guys actually have 3 resto shaman, but I remember Zenge mentioning it once... I think? If not, replace the one in G1 with anything that casts heals.
Last edited by Splug on Fri Apr 18, 2008 11:44 am, edited 3 times in total.
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Postby Rorshach » Fri Apr 18, 2008 11:30 am

Oh yeah Zenge always knows what to do. The guy exhaustively researches everything before we are even halfway there. He is crazyily obsessive that way :D

I'm just posting pally progress really and looking for info from others as well, but not to convince him otherwise. He has two setups, I'm sure the druid one will succeed but I also want to try soon too and would like an 'already-used-and-succeeded' raid setup that works with a paladin.
Thanks for the setup, I'll post it and get guild comments.

As an aside, I successfully tanked Kalecgos through his enrage last night, until 2% anyways when when instead of a LoH I got hit with a DI which was apparently right next to LoH. Stupid holy pallies! :P

But at least I know I can enrage tank now! Oh, and damn the T6 prot bracers are fiiiiiiiine!
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Postby Splug » Fri Apr 18, 2008 11:41 am

Hah, our Kalecgos strategy relies on me popping shield wall to tank Sathrovarr with no healers if there are any random lapses in portals spawning at all. It also seems to involve me getting shredded around 3%, because I'm not entirely sure I remember living through that fight yet...

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Postby Cakes » Fri Apr 18, 2008 11:54 am

Splug wrote:I talked to Zenge a week or two ago and it sounds like you guys already had some fairly solid plans for what you want to do. But for shits and grins, I can come up with the following as an "includes a paladin tank" option by cross-referencing your two listed group configs. G5 has a dead slot with a healer "just kind of there," but otherwise everything looks fairly solid.
Code: Select all
G1: tanks    G2: casters  G3: melee
ProtWarrior  RestShaman   EnhaShaman
ProtPaladin  HolyPaladin  RetrPaladin
AfflWarlock  HolyPriest   ArmsWarrior
RestDruid    DestWarlock  ____Rogue
RestShaman   DestWarlock  ____Rogue
*SoE/WoA/Mana*WoA/Mana    *WF/SoE/Mana
*Blood Pact  *Concentrat'n*Sanctity
*Commanding               *BattleShout
*Devotion                 *Unleashed Rage
*Tree of Life
G4: casters  G5: hunters
ElemShaman   BM__Hunter
BoomDruid    BM__Hunter
____Mage     ????Hunter
____Mage     RestShaman
ShdwPriest   ????Healer
*VE/VT       *FI, FI, possibly FI
*MoonkinAura *GoA/Mana
*WoA/Mana/ToW

Raidwide Debuffs: Sunder, Demo, Thunderclap, Blood Frenzy, Imp. Faerie fire, Insect Swarm, Imp. JotC, JoW, JoL, Shadow weaving, Misery, Shadow Embrace, Imp. Shadowbolt X3, CoR, CoE, CoS, Scorpid Sting, Imp. Hunter's Mark, Possibly Expose Weakness


EDIT: Hrm, I'm not sure if you guys actually have 3 resto shaman, but I remember Zenge mentioning it once... I think? If not, replace the one in G1 with anything that casts heals.


Spriest for the healers, Splug? I know ours can't live without one.
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Postby Splug » Fri Apr 18, 2008 12:03 pm

Heh, after a night of attempts I asked if our healers would be ok without one. The resto druid said it wasn't needed, and that he was pretty much sitting at 100% mana with one. Then a holy paladin said something very 'colorful' about druid mana regeneration, lifebloom, and game ballance. We haven't run with a shadow priest for the healers on this fight since then; giving it to the mages lets them use destruction potions and fire blossoms. Currently the healers have enough mana and the raid is surviving, but our kills are still ~5 seconds post-enrage. Besides, the healer groups all have resto shaman. Mana tide adds a fair chunk of return as well.

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