Is it me or...

Kalecgos, Brutallus, Felmyst, M'uru, Entropius, Kil'jaeden

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Is it me or...

Postby Kitara » Thu Apr 17, 2008 4:40 am

Is it me or is Sunwell not a very paladin friendly instance?

I know this comes up with many raid instances but looking through the boss encounters in sunwell I see many of the old paladin tanking weaknesses appearing (again?).

Starting from lacking debuffs (demo shout/roar and stuff) at the first boss, Ardent Defender not working properly at Brutallus (because hits come too fast after another) to crushing blows + a 25% avoidance debuff getting us below kara levels in uncrushability... is there actually any advantage of bringing a paladin tank here?

(Oh, and I'm aware that it is all doable with a paladin, just hate the feeling of being subpar at everything...)
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Postby Duzzit » Thu Apr 17, 2008 5:04 am

you do realise that not only us get the debuff for -25% right?

further more, bring a dps warrior for the debuffs, brutallus does not crush(need conformation on that but quite sure).

relax, you will do fine.
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Postby Kitara » Thu Apr 17, 2008 6:15 am

Duzzit wrote:you do realise that not only us get the debuff for -25% right?


Yes, but we only got a 30% shield block instead of 75%. Meaning now we get unblocked attacks even when holy shield is up.

Duzzit wrote:further more, bring a dps warrior for the debuffs,


I find it unrealistic to have a damage dealing warrior following you through each portal to fight and tank the demon.

Duzzit wrote:brutallus does not crush(need conformation on that but quite sure).


Nope, he doesn't. Getting ardent defender to work against him is not very realistic though and that means we end up with 4.444...% more damage taken against his physical attacks (compared to warriors, though druids end up being even better in the end I guess).

And other bosses (like the twins) do crush.

Duzzit wrote:relax, you will do fine.


To be honest I don't see why I should tank something if a paladin is the worst possible choice for an encounter. Not really short on tanks in my guild :wink:
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Postby Duzzit » Thu Apr 17, 2008 7:16 am

you also realise this effects druids a lot worse right? I mean dodge is their only real avoidance stat. Ofc, if you feel that you have other tanks that can do the job fine let them, (but still try to get in the raid as healer or dps the drops are great, and once you see the fights a few times try them).
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Postby Lave » Thu Apr 17, 2008 7:22 am

yep.. thats it. without crushing blows and without our ability to mitigate every single attack via block
we just bring nothing special to the table.. why should u use a protpala on brutallus when you
have a druid (best mitigation) and a warrior (debuffs).. using a dps warrior for applying the debuffs
you aren capeable of will just hurt your raid-dps.. wich is a serious matter @ brutallus

so druids bring mitigation & extreme threat gen, warriors bring 100% save taunts and debuffs
paladins bring nothing - and this is the first encounter that makes me feel this

its not like we cant.. its just not optimal. and you absolutly wont want anything other then optimal
things @ brutallus ~ wich makes us 2nd choice
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Postby guillex » Thu Apr 17, 2008 7:24 am

Lave wrote:yep.. thats it. without crushing blows and without our ability to mitigate every single attack via block
we just bring nothing special to the table.. why should u use a protpala on brutallus when you
have a druid (best mitigation) and a warrior (debuffs).. using a dps warrior for applying the debuffs
you aren capeable of will just hurt your raid-dps.. wich is a serious matter @ brutallus

so druids bring mitigation & extreme threat gen, warriors bring 100% save taunts and debuffs
paladins bring nothing - and this is the first encounter that makes me feel this

its not like we cant.. its just not optimal. and you absolutly wont want anything other then optimal
things @ brutallus ~ wich makes us 2nd choice


http://www.failsafedesign.com/maintanka ... &start=120

Read that page. ;)
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Postby Kitara » Thu Apr 17, 2008 7:25 am

Why does it affect druids more? That would only be the case if one would have less than 20% dodge which isn't realistic with gear being as it is.

It reduces 25% avoidance from all tanks, no matter what. The reduction is the same for all classes.

The paladin specific issue (due to low holy shield %) is that we suddenly get unblocked attacks... lowering the value of block value items quite a bit (since it's no longer effective health).
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Postby Warrender » Thu Apr 17, 2008 7:30 am

Hmmm...I wonder if that's why all the block rating in the new T6 pieces? If so, that's a crappy way to itemize for a bandaid.


...unless it's not a bandaid.....dun dun dun!
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Postby Lave » Thu Apr 17, 2008 8:33 am



i did.. page 9.. only non-1-liner post there is from neuron, so i think you refer to him?

he wrote about equipping hit gear - wich might hurt you defense stats (and is something
warriors wont need) <- how exactly is this an advantage for protection paladins? :p

lets say our taunt becomes equal by switching equip.. and we dont even loose defensive
stats for it (wich isnt realistic) - what do we bring vs. a druids mitigation and a warriors
debuffs? heck we dont even do as much damage as them while tanking..

theres no single advantage - just many little issues that add up.

its not like im saying we cant do it.. its not that i dont want us to be a good choice there..
but i just cant see a single thing that would make me say "oh, i wont bring the t6 druid
or the t6 warrior - i bring the paladin!"

i was able to see my niche in fights like suprems.. akama.. gorefind.. ros.. even illidan
but plz tell me - what can we do on brutallus that druids/warriors cant :<

until that im stuck with retribution.. and wait for the moment brutallus isnt a matter of
concern anymore
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Postby Lore » Thu Apr 17, 2008 8:34 am

How is a Paladin, realistically, any worse than any other tank, for Brutallus especially? I think you are looking at the numbers "on paper" and not how they work out in practice.

We take 4% more damage, on average, on Brutallus, this is true. Ardent Defender doesn't always work on him. Neither of those particularly matter, because:

a) You're getting spammed with heals so much that 4% more damage taken just means 4% less overhealing
b) *ANY* tank that gets low enough for Ardent Defender to matter is going to die

Now look at what we bring to the table. Brutallus' fast attack speed, plus being a demon = ridiculous threat gen in a DPS race encounter. Nearly all of my Holy Shield charges are used every time I cast it.

So, you've got:

Meaningless mitigation bonuses
vs
Fight-breaking DPS bonuses

I would argue that Paladins make the BEST tanks for Brutallus.
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Postby Sechs » Thu Apr 17, 2008 8:47 am

Tell that to my gm and raid leader.... :(
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Postby Lave » Thu Apr 17, 2008 9:01 am

you are in no way replying to what i said :>

i didnt say that taking 4% more than w. is an issue.. i dont even believe we do due to +armor aura

i did say that the warriors debuffs are. of cause you could make a dps warrior apply those..but
how much dps will be lost? 400? and the benefit?

u mentioned tps.. our druid does 1800 tps while the warrior does 1400. both do 50-100dps more
while tanking, the druid takes less damage than i do and the warrior applies vital debuffs. our dps
can go wild without pulling aggro

so lets assume you will loose 50dps(tank) and 300dps(warrior to apply debuffs for you).. than
paladin will become usefull when your DPS is able to do more then a protection warrior can handle
and is able to do >350dps more while you are tanking.

this may happen - but then again - why not bring a 2nd druid? :>
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Postby guillex » Thu Apr 17, 2008 9:07 am

Lave wrote:you are in no way replying to what i said :>

i didnt say that taking 4% more than w. is an issue.. i dont even believe we do due to +armor aura

i did say that the warriors debuffs are. of cause you could make a dps warrior apply those..but
how much dps will be lost? 400? and the benefit?

u mentioned tps.. our druid does 1800 tps while the warrior does 1400. both do 50-100dps more
while tanking, the druid takes less damage than i do and the warrior applies vital debuffs. our dps
can go wild without pulling aggro

so lets assume you will loose 50dps(tank) and 300dps(warrior to apply debuffs for you).. than
paladin will become usefull when your DPS is able to do more then a protection warrior can handle
and is able to do >350dps more while you are tanking.

this may happen - but then again - why not bring a 2nd druid? :>


Seeing as it's a DPS race ... He's undead ... Fast-hitting boss ... Why would you not want a paladin tank to offload a ton of threat, and then keep a high-threat rotation going so that your DPS is not capped? Druid can go kitty, and even a warrior can do decent dps, rather than have lolheals/dps from a pally ... or not bring one at all.

That's what he's saying.
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Postby Lave » Thu Apr 17, 2008 9:15 am

Guillex wrote:Seeing as it's a DPS race ... He's undead ... Fast-hitting boss ... Why would you not want a paladin tank to offload a ton of threat, and then keep a high-threat rotation going so that your DPS is not capped? Druid can go kitty, and even a warrior can do decent dps, rather than have lolheals/dps from a pally ... or not bring one at all.

That's what he's saying.


solution is simple - you dont bring tanks that wont tank (no kitty, no dual wield prot, no healtankadin)

when you guilds warriors are doing inferior tps.. and your dps isnt able to go all out - yes, this makes
you as a tankadin a good choice for your guild. (in mine noone ever pullt aggro vs. druid/warr wich seems
to make my niche as a tank nil)
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Postby guillex » Thu Apr 17, 2008 9:31 am

Lave wrote:
Guillex wrote:Seeing as it's a DPS race ... He's undead ... Fast-hitting boss ... Why would you not want a paladin tank to offload a ton of threat, and then keep a high-threat rotation going so that your DPS is not capped? Druid can go kitty, and even a warrior can do decent dps, rather than have lolheals/dps from a pally ... or not bring one at all.

That's what he's saying.


solution is simple - you dont bring tanks that wont tank (no kitty, no dual wield prot, no healtankadin)

when you guilds warriors are doing inferior tps.. and your dps isnt able to go all out - yes, this makes
you as a tankadin a good choice for your guild. (in mine noone ever pullt aggro vs. druid/warr wich seems
to make my niche as a tank nil)


Or your dps bad? :P
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