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Brutallus and taunting

Kalecgos, Brutallus, Felmyst, M'uru, Entropius, Kil'jaeden

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Postby Splug » Wed Apr 02, 2008 2:07 pm

It's fairly minimal, the difference is that I can bottom out on my warrior in 15 seconds, and then I'm riding autoattack and whatever scraps I get there. About how long does it take to go from 100% to rock bottom if you're raid buffed, but not using holy shield? Ironshields are more or less essential to survive the damage Brutallus puts out on a progression level, so mana pots may be a non-option... and a shadowpriest is also unlikely. Mana spring is a possibility. Mainly, it's just a matter of using stored resources with 0 income on both ends, and to my understanding the warrior should hit the bottom of the barrel faster than the paladin.

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EDIT: Crunching it out real quick: in 40 seconds, you can cast 5 consecrates, 2 avenger's shields, 3 exorcisms, 5 judgements, and 5 seal of righteousness.
Avenger's Shield: 2 x 780 = 1560
Consecration: 5 x 660 = 3300
Seal of Righteousness: 5 x 260 = 1300
Exorcism: 3 x 340 = 1020
Judgement: 5 x ?? = ??
Total: 7180 mana, not counting Judgement or taking Benediction into account.
Omitting AS: 5620 mana, not counting Judgement or taking Benediction into account.
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Postby Snake-Aes » Wed Apr 02, 2008 2:44 pm

That's pretty much it. What i'm wondering is that if you really need to generat e threat while it's not your turn. I don't know how his threat reacts to taunts, as it's already seen it may vary in specific situations.
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Postby Splug » Wed Apr 02, 2008 3:19 pm

I've never observed the additive-taunt property you're mentioning, only a "set equal to" property, though you may be correct that there is a special case for the mechanic for some bosses. In this case, the point behind retaining "second on threat" was to allow a BoP on the active tank to result in Brutallus turning to the previously inactive tank, rather than eating a DPS or small child (whichever was higher on threat). Other than BoP-related concerns, there is no need to generate threat while not tanking.

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Postby Dorvan » Wed Apr 02, 2008 3:53 pm

Splug wrote:It's fairly minimal, the difference is that I can bottom out on my warrior in 15 seconds, and then I'm riding autoattack and whatever scraps I get there. About how long does it take to go from 100% to rock bottom if you're raid buffed, but not using holy shield? Ironshields are more or less essential to survive the damage Brutallus puts out on a progression level, so mana pots may be a non-option... and a shadowpriest is also unlikely. Mana spring is a possibility. Mainly, it's just a matter of using stored resources with 0 income on both ends, and to my understanding the warrior should hit the bottom of the barrel faster than the paladin.

-Splug

EDIT: Crunching it out real quick: in 40 seconds, you can cast 5 consecrates, 2 avenger's shields, 3 exorcisms, 5 judgements, and 5 seal of righteousness.
Avenger's Shield: 2 x 780 = 1560
Consecration: 5 x 660 = 3300
Seal of Righteousness: 5 x 260 = 1300
Exorcism: 3 x 340 = 1020
Judgement: 5 x ?? = ??
Total: 7180 mana, not counting Judgement or taking Benediction into account.
Omitting AS: 5620 mana, not counting Judgement or taking Benediction into account.


That seems reasonably accurate. I'm usually at a bit over 7k mana raid buffed which is around 30-40 seconds with absolutely no mana back. If there's any AoE damage at all that'll provide some mana, and JoW is another contributor (depends on your raid make up, I usu have it available). You do lose out on some HS threat, but maintaining a full threat rotation until you get aggro back is a very reasonable proposition, especially omitting AS, which is has pretty poor threat/mana returns. It's going to be a while before I'd be able to test it myself, but staying 2nd on aggro for short bursts of OT'ing like that seems a very reasonable proposition.
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Postby Eliane » Wed Apr 02, 2008 4:46 pm

I have tanked this boss a for 3 hours (one raid for us) and neither me nor the warrior got any taunts resisted. I have 22 hit rating.

Once the other tank taunt I simply stop attacking for a while to make sure I dont over-aggro with a fluke crit or if he should miss a shield-slam or something. All I do until it's my turn to taunt is auto-attack to keep my JotC up. Once I taunt it's absolutely all out again! There is no way in hell I can stay 2nd on threat on this boss and still allow the dps to go all out to beat the enrage timer. I would say the same goes for warriors. Mana pots arent an option because you sort of need the Iron Shields imo.

We didnt get him down becuase we figured out our positioning was a bit off but me and the other tank got some good practice at the rotation.

Edit: As a side note, BoP will whipe the raid. Either right away or you'll lose dps making it impossible to beat the enrage timer.
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Postby icydevarosp » Wed Apr 02, 2008 11:13 pm

If it does make you feel any better splug, did him tonight and I didn't have one resist on him for rightous defense... Also it seems that I was able to keep secondary agro on threat past the first taunt rotation so maybe a BoP macro wont be so bad here
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Postby Mithos » Thu Apr 03, 2008 6:44 am

17% miss chance on taunts? that sucks if it's true. However, I am hit capped and noticed a resisted taunt at Kalecgos (on the demon, off of the NPC). Although, if it was 17% then I would have a 6-7% chance of taunt failing in my gear, and that is more than 1 on 20. I haven't had a taunt resist at all since being hit capped (a good month or so at the very least), until the one mentioned above.
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Postby Rhî » Thu Apr 03, 2008 7:05 am

I've read unverified rumors, that it is possible, that taunt is affected by melee and spell hit chance. Unfortunately there are no valide tests yet, because warriors in 'melee hit cap'-tests can't or just don't equip spell hit, too.

And Palataunt sucks for this kind of testing.

But if that rumor is true, we would gain 6% chance to hit for taunt by precision. So we would need only 10% hit by melee and spell hit.
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Postby Worldie » Thu Apr 03, 2008 8:21 am

righteous defence is still on melee hit since patch 2.something, so 8% base resist
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Postby Neuron » Thu Apr 03, 2008 8:31 am

dumb question: misdirect?
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Postby Splug » Thu Apr 03, 2008 9:49 am

Dorvan, we tested the "paladin tank continuing threat cycle" theory last night, seemed to be stable after about a minute into the fight, where we'd both had a round to generate some threat. Omen choked (I blame Lyro) and the paladin was not inheriting my total threat on Omen when he taunted, so I don't have any hard numbers to back up how far ahead threat was. But it seemed that if one tank died after about the 2 minute mark, the boss would fall back to the off-duty tank rather than eating dps.

Before the 2 minute mark, a rogue, fury warrior, and a warlock got devoured when a tank died. So it seems reasonable from the offtank's second taunt on to throw the BoP, and the "chance to wipe if threat is off" is lower than the "chance to wipe if an entire side gets slashed into the floor." Though, four slashes isn't lethal unless someone takes burn...

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Postby icydevarosp » Thu Apr 03, 2008 10:51 am

It's not lethal to us, but you have to remember our hunter's were dieing almost consistently on the third burn my side. 4th burn on anyone's side leads to that entire side being dead - the tank unless their topped off and over 12k(?) hp
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Postby Sechs » Thu Apr 03, 2008 12:23 pm

This fight is pushing it so hard that if you have to use bop its probaly a wipe anyway.
Only problem with taunt i expericens is the demon on kalagoc, by some reason it dont seem to work or get resisted really often, every other mobb including brtutallus never resist with my gear.

Anyway useing anything else then druids on this guy is just a big gamble, our warrior tank that has the best gear ingame from hyjal and bt die in 1 sec without a heal once stomp hit. This means if your 3 paladin healers syncronise there heals for 1 sec tank will die.... ;>_>

So useing a paladin on bruttalus isent really anymore gimp then useing a warrior. Not even shield wall is of much use because when he enrages he will still 2 shot warriors with shield wall if they dont have stomp, if stomp is on they die in one hit with shield wall. xD
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Postby Rorshach » Wed Apr 09, 2008 1:28 pm

Splug wrote:Dorvan, we tested the "paladin tank continuing threat cycle" theory last night, seemed to be stable after about a minute into the fight, where we'd both had a round to generate some threat. Omen choked (I blame Lyro) and the paladin was not inheriting my total threat on Omen when he taunted, so I don't have any hard numbers to back up how far ahead threat was.


This of course is due to Omen not calculating some paladin abilities atm. Last night I had threat on Bloodboil for 75% of the fight but I was below the two other tanks and a couple DPS on Omen after my first disorient. It was a little freaky til we understood that Omen was screwed. Again.
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Postby Splug » Wed Apr 09, 2008 1:33 pm

Well, that might be the real reason behind it, but I'm still going to just blame Lyro. ;)

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