Brutallus and taunting

Kalecgos, Brutallus, Felmyst, M'uru, Entropius, Kil'jaeden

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Postby Splug » Wed Apr 02, 2008 9:47 am

Tisiphone wrote:
Worldie wrote:
However, i can't blame em for Brutallus, we actually are the worse possible tank for him.

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How could a paladin possibly be bad on him? O.o

15 second recast on Righteous Defense.
14 second recast on Meteor Strike.

What happens if RD gets resisted?

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Postby Snake-Aes » Wed Apr 02, 2008 9:57 am

bubbling, like in Nalorakk..


Of course, things are much, much hairier on that guy O.o
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Postby Splug » Wed Apr 02, 2008 10:22 am

Hrm... it wouldn't let you inherit the other tank's threat though, so you'd have to stay at #2 on threat for 40 seconds while not tanking. Given the damage-intensive nature of the fight, it's more likely that BoP on the other tank will result in all the fury warriors and warlocks being very quickly devoured.
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Postby Snake-Aes » Wed Apr 02, 2008 11:31 am

As I said, much much more hairy :p
I don't know how warrior and druid taunts work other than being enemy-targetted and have a shorter cooldown. Is it really something that would invariably make or break the fight after a resist?
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Postby honorshammer » Wed Apr 02, 2008 11:38 am

Snake-Aes wrote:As I said, much much more hairy :p
I don't know how warrior and druid taunts work other than being enemy-targetted and have a shorter cooldown. Is it really something that would invariably make or break the fight after a resist?


Our taunt is enemy-targetted as of 2.4. I target the enemy taunt and he's on me.

I'd give large sums to have the cooldown reduced. 15 seconds can feel like a lifetime.
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Postby Splug » Wed Apr 02, 2008 11:45 am

Aye, it's the cooldown in this case. You have a 14 second window to get Brutallus onto the other tank before he performs another Meteor Slash. RD is 15 seconds, so a resist means that tank's side takes an additional Slash. Depending on the strategy, your healers, and the random Burn victims, that may be survivable but very unpleasant. In some strategies I've heard of, it is a guarenteed wipe. In a three-tank rotation, it's probably not really a problem at all. If a warrior's taunt is resisted, taunt will be back up in 10 seconds, letting them try again. In the event both taunts fail, challenging shout presents a third attempt (though it may only be used once per fight). If challenging shout and both taunts all fail, mocking blow gives a fourth attempt. If all four of those miss, you're back in the same spot... but you only have to win one out of four dice rolls to the paladin's one out of one. Druids would be looking at three attempts (growl, growl, challenging roar).

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Postby Dorvan » Wed Apr 02, 2008 12:30 pm

Splug wrote:Aye, it's the cooldown in this case. You have a 14 second window to get Brutallus onto the other tank before he performs another Meteor Slash. RD is 15 seconds, so a resist means that tank's side takes an additional Slash. Depending on the strategy, your healers, and the random Burn victims, that may be survivable but very unpleasant. In some strategies I've heard of, it is a guarenteed wipe. In a three-tank rotation, it's probably not really a problem at all. If a warrior's taunt is resisted, taunt will be back up in 10 seconds, letting them try again. In the event both taunts fail, challenging shout presents a third attempt (though it may only be used once per fight). If challenging shout and both taunts all fail, mocking blow gives a fourth attempt. If all four of those miss, you're back in the same spot... but you only have to win one out of four dice rolls to the paladin's one out of one. Druids would be looking at three attempts (growl, growl, challenging roar).

-Splug


Wouldn't BoP accomplish the same thing? Even if you couldn't overtake the other tank in threat, if the ability is cast at fixed intervals rather than having just a cooldown timer you could BoP the tank and eat the meteor slah, with no problem if Brut went back to the original tank right after BoP wore off. Of course, that's only one back up taunt for the entire fight so far from ideal compared to the other tanks, but that would give you at least one thing to fall back on, no?
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Postby Dragonzbane » Wed Apr 02, 2008 12:42 pm

Worldie wrote:I must say that bosskillers usually sucks and also says loads of craps

However, i can't blame em for Brutallus, we actually are the worse possible tank for him.


And yet...

there's already been a few Paladins who have tanked him for progression kills.
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Postby Snake-Aes » Wed Apr 02, 2008 12:45 pm

Worse doesn't mean undoable, it may still mean worse.

it's really that Paladin tricks are very different to work on. On that for example, there's no tank rotation if there's a resist. You work your way to soak the lash and the other tank keeps going in the cycle.
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Postby Kikiel » Wed Apr 02, 2008 1:05 pm

Snake-Aes wrote:As I said, much much more hairy :p
I don't know how warrior and druid taunts work other than being enemy-targetted and have a shorter cooldown. Is it really something that would invariably make or break the fight after a resist?


Stack up some melee hit. RD follows the melee hit table now so it can be pushed to no chance of resist. It's not like you would need a lot of spell damage in this case being that he is a DWer, a demon, and you are grabbing the threat of the other tanks swapping in some warrior gear that stacks up hit instead of Spell damage wouldn't seem like a problem. Paladins already get the advantage of having a 3% hit chance in their talent build that warriors and druids don't have.
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Postby Splug » Wed Apr 02, 2008 1:19 pm

Hrm - should we relocate this discussion to the Brutallus thread at some point? It's starting to get fairly specific to the encounter, hehe.

Dorvan wrote:Wouldn't BoP accomplish the same thing? Even if you couldn't overtake the other tank in threat, if the ability is cast at fixed intervals rather than having just a cooldown timer you could BoP the tank and eat the meteor slah, with no problem if Brut went back to the original tank right after BoP wore off. Of course, that's only one back up taunt for the entire fight so far from ideal compared to the other tanks, but that would give you at least one thing to fall back on, no?

If you BoP the other tank, Brutallus will go to whoever is second on his threat list. You would have been not tanking for roughly 40 seconds, in an encounter where several players are pushing the 2k dps barrier. There is a fairly realistic chance that the guy second on agro is not the tank we want Brutallus to fall back to.

Kikiel wrote:Stack up some melee hit. RD follows the melee hit table now so it can be pushed to no chance of resist. It's not like you would need a lot of spell damage in this case being that he is a DWer, a demon, and you are grabbing the threat of the other tanks swapping in some warrior gear that stacks up hit instead of Spell damage wouldn't seem like a problem. Paladins already get the advantage of having a 3% hit chance in their talent build that warriors and druids don't have.

I saw a comment by Gerilith (EDIT: Link here: http://www.failsafedesign.com/maintanka ... 1&start=30 ) saying taunt/RD/growl use the spell-school base resist chance of 17%, even though they're modified by melee hit. Even with precision, you'd need about 200 hit rating to meet that. And with the intense gear demands, it's unlikely that shy of wearing a full warrior gearset that you'd meet more than about 80 hit rating while remaining capable of surviving a Stomp->DW spike.

Snake-Aes wrote:Worse doesn't mean undoable, it may still mean worse.

Exactly - it's not impossible to tank with a paladin. But you do run the risk of a resisted taunt, and need to have a much more specialized fallback plan than "roll the dice again in 10 seconds."

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Postby Dorvan » Wed Apr 02, 2008 1:23 pm

Splug wrote:
Dorvan wrote:Wouldn't BoP accomplish the same thing? Even if you couldn't overtake the other tank in threat, if the ability is cast at fixed intervals rather than having just a cooldown timer you could BoP the tank and eat the meteor slah, with no problem if Brut went back to the original tank right after BoP wore off. Of course, that's only one back up taunt for the entire fight so far from ideal compared to the other tanks, but that would give you at least one thing to fall back on, no?

If you BoP the other tank, Brutallus will go to whoever is second on his threat list. You would have been not tanking for roughly 40 seconds, in an encounter where several players are pushing the 2k dps barrier. There is a fairly realistic chance that the guy second on agro is not the tank we want Brutallus to fall back to.


I'd think that that wouldn't really be an issue....on any fight that involves taunting back and forth a lot keeping the 2 tanks above everyone else hasn't ever been an issue for me, and 40 seconds isn't all *that* long to keep a full threat rotation going. I think it'd probably be fine, but then I'm just armchair quarterbacking here.

Also, forgive m ignorance, but why 40 seconds without having aggro? and if that's the case, why couldn't you just taunt earlier?
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Postby Snake-Aes » Wed Apr 02, 2008 1:31 pm

Taunting, as I see, sets my threat to the threat level of the aggroed person + makes him target me. I have to keep racing if said target doesn't stop.


However, that didn't seem to be true in the equivalent fight for him, nalorakk, where you have to keep taunting so the tanks survive the fight. There, instead of just gaining aggro + top threat, it was a plain "my threat becomes my threat + his threat". I've noticed that both on the meter, as a tank(no aggro loss even being oom for a considerable while of my phase) and as a dpser(pushing unsalved 1200 dps on the warlock and not stealing aggro at all since the first taunt is no small thing when the tanks don't produce that much threat). Is this how it happens for this guy? If it is, threat really doesn't seem it will ever be an issue.




... >.> I'm nowhere close to even glancing at sunwell, why am I speculating here?
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Postby Splug » Wed Apr 02, 2008 1:35 pm

Meteor Slash places a debuff on everyone in front of Brutallus, increasing fire damage by 75% and stacking. The debuff lasts 40 seconds, so you need someone else to tank for that time while your debuff, as well as everyone behind you, lets it fade. Thus, the "40 seconds off" time will be uneffected by how many tanks you have, etc: unless everyone behind you can iceblock or divine shield away the debuff, you must take a 40 second break each cycle.

However, you make a good point about threat rotations while not tanking. I was thinking in terms of what happens when I as a warrior am not tanking, and the result is that I have about 15 seconds of burning what rage I have left (during which heroic strike is a non-option), as well as replacing revenge with an additional devastate. After that, rage generation bottoms out and I can't really do much of anything to generate reliable threat. Meanwhile, paladins would only lose holy shield ticks, and would be able to suppliment the lost threat via throwing a pair of AS's. So the gap a paladin tank would observe while not tanking would be much smaller than what a warrior observes.

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Postby Snake-Aes » Wed Apr 02, 2008 1:55 pm

Honorshammer wrote:
Snake-Aes wrote:As I said, much much more hairy :p
I don't know how warrior and druid taunts work other than being enemy-targetted and have a shorter cooldown. Is it really something that would invariably make or break the fight after a resist?


Our taunt is enemy-targetted as of 2.4. I target the enemy taunt and he's on me.

I'd give large sums to have the cooldown reduced. 15 seconds can feel like a lifetime.

Can you taunt an enemy that isn't targetting anything? Like a trapped target that didn't have targets atm(feared)? I know I can't. The experience I saw is that the taunt now only embedded our macro in it. I still have to target the npcs in hyjal to taunt off them, for example.


Splug wrote:Meteor Slash places a debuff on everyone in front of Brutallus, increasing fire damage by 75% and stacking. The debuff lasts 40 seconds, so you need someone else to tank for that time while your debuff, as well as everyone behind you, lets it fade. Thus, the "40 seconds off" time will be uneffected by how many tanks you have, etc: unless everyone behind you can iceblock or divine shield away the debuff, you must take a 40 second break each cycle.

However, you make a good point about threat rotations while not tanking. I was thinking in terms of what happens when I as a warrior am not tanking, and the result is that I have about 15 seconds of burning what rage I have left (during which heroic strike is a non-option), as well as replacing revenge with an additional devastate. After that, rage generation bottoms out and I can't really do much of anything to generate reliable threat. Meanwhile, paladins would only lose holy shield ticks, and would be able to suppliment the lost threat via throwing a pair of AS's. So the gap a paladin tank would observe while not tanking would be much smaller than what a warrior observes.

-Splug
While there are more resources to recover mana, without the big one that you also use(taking damage), a paladin doesn't have mana regen in it's own. I sick mself being oom if I don't get a shadow priest in my party, and this guy really looks like one where a spriest won't be used in the tank party unless there's no Tree around..which is just as strange.

Again, using my T4-or-5 experience, i'm usually out of the threat gen cycle during the other tank's phase, where I swap into SoW and autoattack to have a valuable mana regen. I take it your rage won't grow at all durnig the other's turn? :|
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