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Felmyst

Kalecgos, Brutallus, Felmyst, M'uru, Entropius, Kil'jaeden

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Postby Splug » Mon Jun 23, 2008 12:36 pm

Felmyst's damage isn't bad at all. The only time things get dangerous is during the corrosion, or if a pile of people resist mass dispel and the single-target removal crew falls behind on cleansing me. (For a paladin, the second case should be a non-issue.) I need to run the numbers again, but I think it may actually be worthwhile to not use ironshields on this fight, and instead keep the potion cooldown open for health potions during corrosion - overall you'll take slightly more damage, but the health boost is there when you need it. Just keep in mind that she'll hit for ~11k during corrosion, so your "safe level" is around 13k health. Blow a stone/pot if you're anywhere under that mark for more than a GCD.

As far as threat concerns: while she's on the ground, it's not a problem. The tricky part comes in when she goes into the air and ranged damage can continue to fire for a good 20 seconds. However, there's a simple trick for that: every ranged class has some form of threat-resetting/decreasing ability. So they can overshoot while she's in the air, as long as they make sure to feign/soulshatter/invis when Felmyst lands. Note that at least Soulshatter and Feign have a max range on their effects, and as such you may need to plan BoP's on high-threat ranged so Felmyst gets close enough to soulshatter.

That said: I'd recommend a standard "ballanced" set between stam/avoidance/threat for tanking the dragon. No need to really overkill any one element more than the others, just make sure your ranged know that they all need to drop threat before/as she lands for the second ground phase. Avoidance trinkets and shadowmoon insignia both work great for helping survive corrosion, but keep in mind you're likely to take two corrosions per ground phase so you can't bank on every cooldown being active every corrosion.

-Splug
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Postby Elsie » Mon Jun 23, 2008 3:00 pm

Of course, when she's in the air you can still exorcism / avenger's shield / judge / holy wrath. Not that those will compare to the threat casters will do then.
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Postby Aetherial » Mon Jun 23, 2008 3:53 pm

Interestingly enough, if you can get sufficiently high on HP/armor/avoidance, popping a Flask of Blinding Light instead of Fortification (or elixir combo) will make your DPS love you long time. I tried that out on our most recent kill and we dropped her about 10-15 seconds before she took off for the last air phase. Given that you can only really TPS her half the time, the more threat you can put out while she's on the ground, the better off you are. My healers didn't notice any real difference between healing me with either flask, but you should (out of courtesy) give them a heads-up before doing it.
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Postby Morganim » Mon Jun 23, 2008 10:00 pm

Splug wrote:Felmyst's damage isn't bad at all. The only time things get dangerous is during the corrosion, or if a pile of people resist mass dispel and the single-target removal crew falls behind on cleansing me. (For a paladin, the second case should be a non-issue.) I need to run the numbers again, but I think it may actually be worthwhile to not use ironshields on this fight, and instead keep the potion cooldown open for health potions during corrosion - overall you'll take slightly more damage, but the health boost is there when you need it. Just keep in mind that she'll hit for ~11k during corrosion, so your "safe level" is around 13k health. Blow a stone/pot if you're anywhere under that mark for more than a GCD.

As far as threat concerns: while she's on the ground, it's not a problem. The tricky part comes in when she goes into the air and ranged damage can continue to fire for a good 20 seconds. However, there's a simple trick for that: every ranged class has some form of threat-resetting/decreasing ability. So they can overshoot while she's in the air, as long as they make sure to feign/soulshatter/invis when Felmyst lands. Note that at least Soulshatter and Feign have a max range on their effects, and as such you may need to plan BoP's on high-threat ranged so Felmyst gets close enough to soulshatter.

That said: I'd recommend a standard "ballanced" set between stam/avoidance/threat for tanking the dragon. No need to really overkill any one element more than the others, just make sure your ranged know that they all need to drop threat before/as she lands for the second ground phase. Avoidance trinkets and shadowmoon insignia both work great for helping survive corrosion, but keep in mind you're likely to take two corrosions per ground phase so you can't bank on every cooldown being active every corrosion.

-Splug


Splug i went in last night and was taking 14-15k hit during corrosion.
I know for a couple things that
1) DPS warrior WAS using demo shout, not sure about TC
2) i didnt have a priest or shammy for 25% armor.
3) No imp or com shut as well sucks.

i sat at around 23k armor, with ironshields and 21,800 hp fully buffed without the imp or shout.

but would insipriation really reduce another 2k or so off the incoming hits during corrsion, if so im going to have to get our healing assignments changed.

Threat was fine though, i used wings at the start of each ground phase and never had a problem with hhim aggroing onto a dps when landing. Only thing holding us back from a kill is the 2-3 people dc'ing every fucking time we run south
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Postby Elsie » Mon Jun 23, 2008 10:30 pm

inspiration is ~5% reduction or 750 dmg. Being a warrior is 4% so 600 more off.
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Postby Splug » Tue Jun 24, 2008 12:12 am

Hrm, the healers assigned to me full time are a druid and two paladins usually, not sure what the uptime on ancestral healing/inspiration is from random off-assignment heals, given the rate of raid damage I can't imagine it's very high.

And yeah- 4% more damage from def stance vs IRF only accounts for a few hundred... are you using block value gear for the AE still? (Doesn't sound like it with those armor/stam numbers.) I don't know if anyone was logging tonight's runs, I'll ask tomorrow. I may just be going off the low-end numbers, but I don't recall anything at all over 13k and change... though I started using ironshields again after a few spikes got me killed trying to experiment with heal potions.

-Splug
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Postby Morganim » Tue Jun 24, 2008 1:45 am

Nah just my normal tanking gear, it'd be what im in armory with atm

is armor applied before or after corrosion ?
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Postby Splug » Tue Jun 24, 2008 8:48 am

Hrm. Armor shouldn't matter due to the commutative property of multiplication. Block value on the other hand is not multiplicative, so it DOES matter. However, I've always heard that block value is the last number to get tacked in, so I think it'd be:

Base hit, Corrosion/Armor, then Block Value.

In the event that it occurs:

Base hit, Armor, Block Value, Corrosion

You would double the effect of your block value during the corrosion, due to having that damage subtracted before the x2 multiplier. I do not think that is the case, but I could be wrong (and it would account for a significant variance in damage intake). I use a block value metagem on top of a few pieces that are fairly high BV, want to say I sit around 550ish block nowadays but with the servers down I can't log in to check (and I'm too lazy to add it up from wowarmory, heh).

-Splug
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Postby Tisiphone » Tue Jun 24, 2008 9:11 am

Splug wrote:Hrm. Armor shouldn't matter due to the commutative property of multiplication. Block value on the other hand is not multiplicative, so it DOES matter. However, I've always heard that block value is the last number to get tacked in, so I think it'd be:

Base hit, Corrosion/Armor, then Block Value.

In the event that it occurs:

Base hit, Armor, Block Value, Corrosion

You would double the effect of your block value during the corrosion, due to having that damage subtracted before the x2 multiplier. I do not think that is the case, but I could be wrong (and it would account for a significant variance in damage intake). I use a block value metagem on top of a few pieces that are fairly high BV, want to say I sit around 550ish block nowadays but with the servers down I can't log in to check (and I'm too lazy to add it up from wowarmory, heh).

-Splug

Corrosion increases physical damage taken by 100%. So in fact, Block Value loses it's value, because you get smacked twice as hard. Armor and Avoidance value stays the same because you avoid/mitigate the same % of damage.

It doesn't matter if Armor is applied before or after Corrosion.
A 10k hit reduced by 70% and then multiplied is 10000*0.7=3000*2=6000
A 10k hit multiplied and then reduced by 70% is 10000*2=20000*0.7=6000
Like they say, bind all buttons to FoL and just roll your head over the keyboard.
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Postby Splug » Tue Jun 24, 2008 9:17 am

I agree that armor vs corrosion does not matter, but whether it's multiplied before or after block value (an additive component) does make a significant difference. The question is: does corrosion double the base attack value, or the "damage taken" post blocks, sanctuary, etc?

Example: base hit of 6500, block value of 500.
Case A: 6500*2 - 500 = 12500
Case B: (6500-500)*2 = 12000

-Splug

EDIT: The net result of that exchange is that in case A, the percentage of damage reduced by block value relative to non-corroded hits is halved, but is constant relative to other 13000-point hits. In case B, the percentage of damage reduced by block value relative to non-corroded hits is constant, but is doubled relative to other 13000-point hits. In case A, armor vs block value should be valued according to a boss hitting for 13000, but in case B they should be valued according to a boss hitting for 6500, and thus block value becomes significantly more valuable relative to armor or stamina.
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Postby Worldie » Tue Jun 24, 2008 10:51 am

I'm quite sure it's case A
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Postby Extremity » Tue Jun 24, 2008 11:59 am

Downed brutallus last night and went in for a few hours on Felmyst. The main thing we had trouble with, honestly, was encapsulate. Admittedly we did not have an ideal group for the fight but I am still curious as to how you guys deal with it. Our setup was three groups spread out, and each group had another group they were assigned to run to if somebody near them got encapsulate. The problem is people seem to be waiting for the pink animation to run, which means they get 2-3 ticks and somebody usually dies because of that and the constant 1k AOE. How do you guys deal with it? DBM doesn't seem reliable in calling it out.


Also, for P2, I have a holy pally near me with RF up spam heals on a lifetapping warlock and the skeletons run to my consecrate without anybody needing to do a single thing.
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Postby Cakes » Tue Jun 24, 2008 1:22 pm

Extremity wrote:Downed brutallus last night and went in for a few hours on Felmyst. The main thing we had trouble with, honestly, was encapsulate. Admittedly we did not have an ideal group for the fight but I am still curious as to how you guys deal with it. Our setup was three groups spread out, and each group had another group they were assigned to run to if somebody near them got encapsulate. The problem is people seem to be waiting for the pink animation to run, which means they get 2-3 ticks and somebody usually dies because of that and the constant 1k AOE. How do you guys deal with it? DBM doesn't seem reliable in calling it out.


This probably isn't the answer you're looking for, but people simply have to not be bad. There's virtually zero time to stand there waiting for someone to tell you to move on this fight, you have to do your part to run like hell on your own. If you wait for the encapsulate warning to come up, it's probably already too late. A good thing to watch is Felmyst's target: if it changes, you have an encapsulate (barring the rare MT encapsulate) or someone just pulled agro. I'd suggest your people get familiar with the people they're surrounded by, so they know when to move and when to stand still.

I can't stress this enough though, this is on personal responsibility. This fight and twins even more so, if you hesistate, you die and most likely wipe the raid.
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Postby Lucit » Tue Jun 24, 2008 1:24 pm

Cakes wrote:This probably isn't the answer you're looking for, but people simply have to not be bad. There's virtually zero time to stand there waiting for someone to tell you to move on this fight, you have to do your part to run like hell on your own. If you wait for the encapsulate warning to come up, it's probably already too late. A good thing to watch is Felmyst's target: if it changes, you have an encapsulate (barring the rare MT encapsulate) or someone just pulled agro. I'd suggest your people get familiar with the people they're surrounded by, so they know when to move and when to stand still.

I can't stress this enough though, this is on personal responsibility. This fight and twins even more so, if you hesistate, you die and most likely wipe the raid.


I'm sure this has been mentioned in the thread, but the easiest encapsulate indicator is that she'll turn and face her encap target - don't need to rely on raid warnings or anything, just strafe away if she turns in your general direction.
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Postby Morganim » Tue Jun 24, 2008 8:51 pm

For encapsulate, (we are still learning) but we had trouble at start.

Now we use arcane pots/hp pots + healthstone every time and havn't had problems since. If people are to cheap to go farm up a couple stacks of arcane pots dont allow them in the raid.
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