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Tanking KJ Plus Reflections

Kalecgos, Brutallus, Felmyst, M'uru, Entropius, Kil'jaeden

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Tanking KJ Plus Reflections

Postby Rickrolling » Sun Aug 10, 2008 11:20 pm

The Goal of explaining this here is to ask your opinion on it and what would you change, I want opinions of people who actually done the fight. Not from hearsay or I know it will fail junk. I am looking for positive insightful replies. Thank you very much to all those who read and give any time helping.


Guilds been doing decent attempts on KJ, pretty good for just getting there but the DPS been kinda slow and we wipe at 61-65 Percent sometimes and want your guys opinion on this idea, the goal outa this setup is to have best utility per person by increasing my overall responsibilities, increase my overall dps on KJ. Allow the dps warrior(s) to double his DPS by being the right spec and gear on.


Currently we have a DPS Warrior tanking KJ and I take care of Reflections. I feel this fight is more suited for Paladin tanking him.


Consumables
30 Stam food, Flask of Fort, Spell Damage to Weapon
Armor Absorb Chest and Ironshield or Destruction Potion Depending on Reflections
In General t6 Tanking Gear with some gear switched for better utility during tanking of reflections.


The Layout
I stand East of the Boss with Melee on North and South, Warlocks and Mages Directly behind me in Waves with Healers and Hunters in Back.
Mages Control


The Spec
0/50/11
Lose 6 Percent Armor and 1-2 Percent Parry for Threat, But will have 22k Health Fully buffed


Threat
Three Hunter Misdirects for KJ,
I figure I would have to yell at the raid During Phase 2 to go easy on DPS and just give me time for some more heat. First of all we have a Ret Paladin who's putting Crusader on Boss and I know I can get in the melee group. Plus Specing 5/5 Reckoning will help my threat with +Alar Trinket. If I get wind fury i should be doing awesome threat Plus reckoning on KJ when using SoR(+Libram of Divine Purpose) Should have around 700-800 Spell Damage Buffed and should hit a thousand when Trinket Procs



Phase 2, Slow DPS Bust Wings - Build as much threat as possible.

Phase 3
Mages and Warlocks Stand on Top of me
Turn Towards Raid Shield Adds and Taunt the Extra
Healers Spam High Rank, Warlocks Seed KJ,
Depending on Reflections If it is Paladin one person designated to spam dispell me, Change Auras, Change Phasing, But once all are on me i keep going at KJ

Phase 4
Same as Phase 3 and Phase 5 can we say 25 percent more threat to KJ?


I feel I can do this if I do it right, What you all think :?: I am asking the my fellow paladins before I lean on my GM to get it done
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Postby Rickrolling » Sun Aug 10, 2008 11:36 pm

* Once Reflections Spawn should be noted Mages and Warlocks go back to there spots
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Postby inthedrops » Mon Aug 11, 2008 7:43 am

We are at about the same progression (you being a few more percent than us). I also tank the reflections. It's an interesting idea.

A few concerns though:
1. When Wing-Clipped/HoJ'd will KJ turn his attacks to someone else? As good as people can be with removing CC there is still going to always be a delay.
2. What if a warlock/mage or you has bloom? Still want them to run in on you for reflections? Sounds sketchy.
3. What about hunter reflections? They will stand there and shoot for a while too.
4. It seems that it could be challenging to position some of the mobs for shield collapses. Warriors with their cleave and Shaman with their earth shock (or whatever that totem is) pose a bit of a risk.

Guess that's all my thoughts for now. Interesting idea though.
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Postby Markoh » Mon Aug 11, 2008 10:55 am

I used a blinding light flask and wore my spell dmg stacking gear (4 piece t6 instead of 2 piece, and badge boots instead of warrior tanking ones) keeping agro on all the reflections is your most important job, give up survivability and focus on getting those reflections. Also pursuit of justice is very helpful on this b/c it allows you to move around and get to reflections faster.

There is a macro in the other kj thread (I think page 5) that is perfect it allows you to spam it. It's a /cleartarget /targetexact /cast avengershield macro.

Also as far as when reflections come up I use this macro run toward the reflections and judge righteousness on the 4th add. After this I speed drag them ontop of the tank (if its not one of the immobile adds) and locks begin to seed immediately. One way to fix the problem with the locks and mages is to have them move into mellee range right before kj phase switches.

One thing to remember is that the dps requirment from 85 > 55 and 55 > 25 are not trivial, so you need to do whatever you can to get the adds down asap and locks back on whatever they are doing. Because of this when I do it I gear for spelldmg and use blinding light flasks, also unless its a rogue or a warrior I pop destro pots on every set and use wings on the 2nd set of reflections.

Also try and save your bubble for the scenario where you get a bloom right before a set of reflections (not being able to wings on a particular set of reflections is ok if you can save your healers the immense ammount of healing that you blooming the raid would cause.)

Finally about your idea of having you tank both, I don't really see it working threat is a major issue on this fight (we use a feral druid) because if anyone is threat capped you are going to make learning the fight and will make getting the dps requirements to a comfortable level much harder. When I do this since I'm basically power dragging the reflections asap there are times when healers or dps will pull agro, we have the feral help me by feral charging/taunt/ drag back to me and my pile. He lets me know he has one and when judgment is back up I switch to that target taunt and judge the reflection immediately to get it back on me.

Ok now time to try and answer Inthedrops question.
A few concerns though:
1. When Wing-Clipped/HoJ'd will KJ turn his attacks to someone else? As good as people can be with removing CC there is still going to always be a delay.
There is only one move that is agro based and its channeled so ussually it doens't time out so that he agros someone else, and to be honest it's not a huge deal if someone takes an occasional soul flay as long as your healers are aware of who is next on agro and can switch cleanly.

2. What if a warlock/mage or you has bloom? Still want them to run in on you for reflections? Sounds sketchy.
I don't think having them run on you is a good idea, but having them run up to mellee range is and if he is just blooming you it will be no problem for healers so I wouldn't worry. Just make sure the lock/mage moves away as soon as the reflections pop.

3. What about hunter reflections? They will stand there and shoot for a while too.
Hunter reflections will mellee you if you run into mellee range, so you need to move on top of them and drag them back to the aoe spot. Make sure you don't allow too large of a gap between you and the adds so you can prevent them from shooting again.

4. It seems that it could be challenging to position some of the mobs for shield collapses. Warriors with their cleave and Shaman with their earth shock (or whatever that totem is) pose a bit of a risk.
Warrior adds are a bit of a problem, (earth shock isn't really anything you can do they will interrupt your dps and healers) I just tank the adds in the same spot near the tank on kj and warn mellee to watch where they are standing. Really like most aspects of the fight all you can do is make sure you communicate that you have warrior adds and people will need to be aware and move on their own.


I know thats alot and is probably long winded but I hope I helped at least a little.
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Postby Sechs » Mon Aug 11, 2008 12:04 pm

I think mana might be a problem tanking Kj, Only tryed tanking him once with maintanking gear on and the mana just run dry so fast, Of course tps gear it would probably have been a whole other story still wonder tho if it be enough.
It might be possible with a good shadow priest that can keep your mana up with the help you get from KJs soulfly attack.

This can definitely work as far as i know there is no time limit on how long you can build threat in phaze 2 so with enough time it shouldn't be a problem. Also remember that the mages and warlocks don't necessity have to hug you only get close enough for avenging shield and judgment to hit as the reflections can be interrupted now.

Just want to add something to about inthedrops questions.
1 --> Wing clip and stuns have never cased loss of agro and its the same on KJ.

2 --> If you drag adds to the shield the add dps is really low, On all of our kills we usually kill the adds 20 sec before the shield have to be used. So if this happens frequently this is something that should be looked in to.

Much typing and hardly any substance xD thinking you already read the other thread so not much use repeating it over again.
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Postby PsiVen » Mon Aug 11, 2008 2:07 pm

I don't see us outperforming a druid or even a warrior in DPS gear for threat on KJ. We can Exorcism him sure, but the TPS from that is actually less than the amount of threat we lose from Holy Shield procs since he almost never melees. Also tanking reflections and KJ at the same time would hurt quite a lot, 4 melee adds on you will cause you to be hit in the back if you try to position them too hastily to allow threat on KJ.

So after I read all that I realized that he has that Holy damage debuff starting at... 55? So yeah, that would be really amazing threat and you would be able to burn him faster with an extra DPS. If you can actually pull off the reflections successfully while maximizing KJ threat it would be impressive though.
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Postby Markoh » Mon Aug 11, 2008 2:51 pm

While we would have amazing threat during p5 I would think druids would have much higher threat left over from the first 3 phases. Also there is enough confusion with all the meteors in p5 I would hate to imagine trying to tank kj, round up all the adds, and be able to maintain threat on all of them all while constantly dodging meteors and moving in and out of shields.

Also the last phase is really quick, the first like 20-25 seconds of it is him talking so you can burn him down a good bit before he even starts doing stuff. With no shield orbs in p5 all the dps are on kj also and because of this it is basically the fastest part of the fight. Barring screwing up shields if you get to p5 with 25 ppl its pretty much a kill from a dps standpoint.
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Really?

Postby Projectx » Wed Aug 13, 2008 10:23 am

I don't see a reason why would you even pick up Reckoning over armor. I also don't see a reason why you would use a Flask of Binding Light over other possible consumables.

You should not have an issue TPS wise when tanking reflections [Depending on how you do it]. I usually gather them all up when they spawn, take them to a spot and only need roughly 4-5 seconds in order to build up 7-9k threat on all of them.

Reflections spawn @ 85%->55%->25% and you will probably have Avenging wrath for the 2 that count. The reflections that spawn @ 25% do not need to be killed. Oh yea, it is imperative that you also bring Free Action Potions for when it comes to Paladin reflections.

Threat should not be an issue on this fight if you are tanking reflections.
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Postby Markoh » Wed Aug 13, 2008 11:42 am

I have to disagree with you on tps on reflections. Our strat involves getting the reflections down asap and we don't want to have our locks sitting around for an extra 10-12 seconds and because of this agro becomes an issue at times.

Though reckoning is worthless imo b/c there are 4 reflections and the reckoning will only help you on the one.
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.

Postby Projectx » Wed Aug 13, 2008 12:47 pm

You do not have to have the warlocks sit around for 10-12 seconds, they can DPS whatever they were until you are ready. Also, 10-12 seconds is exaggerating it a bit don't you think? My warlocks can initiate DPS as soon as they are all gathered.

You can AE a majority of the reflections henceforth the requirement of threat per mob is greatly decreased.

Threat being an issue is just far fetched, it's like paladins using Flask of binding light and Sdmg food for Muru spawns...it's totally useless. As long as you have a good rotation lined up and your mobs are gathered, threat should not be an issue. Never.
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Postby Ratanna » Wed Aug 13, 2008 2:39 pm

yeah what pj said.

i have never really geared/spec for threat either. Its always been survivability over threat. 40/21 spec may be good for tanking adds but not boss tanking. Unless u wanna hear healers complain about how other tanks are infintely easier to heal and that u get repped for a tank that takes less dmg and wont wipe the raid.

Threat has never really been an issue for me. I've always focused more on surviving and minimizing dmg before threat. Its done wonders for my raid spots and tanking opportunities in sunwell =).

With good rotations and usage of abilities u dont have to sacrifice anything for threat. The more u spec/gear for threat the less your viability will come especially in progression. Bring something to the table other than a boost in threat that will put u closer to other tanks but not surpass them.

40/21 i'd never use for MT boss tanking in sunwell. kalecgos, brutallus, felmyst (mt), twins, muru (sides), KJ (reflections).

just my opinion though
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Postby Markoh » Wed Aug 13, 2008 4:34 pm

For mellee adds sure normal threat is fine, but when you get to mages or warlock adds you get almost no chance to do reactive threat b/c they are all casting.

I have no problem with survivability in my threat gear with a blinding light flask, so the way I figure it is why try pressing your luck with what type of adds you get.

Also after the first set of transistions there is no promising your gonna get time to sit there and do your rotation with meteors flying around. I found this out the hard way when I had meteors come at 4 straight positions.

I really don't get it, it seems like we're talking about 2 compeltely different fights. The other prot pally and myself in my guild have like no survivablity issues and do have threat problems if we arn't in threat gear, flask, and poping destro pots. Where you sound like you have the opposite problem, it must just be the difference b/w set up, strat, and raid comp. Like we run with lots of resto druids and shaman where as one of the other kj killing guilds on my server tend to go priest and paladin heavy and try to bring less resto shaman.


I guess as a side note, we don't bother with free action potions we have the ret pally cleanse me and it seems to work fine.
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Postby Extremity » Thu Aug 14, 2008 7:13 pm

Ratanna wrote:yeah what pj said.
40/21 i'd never use for MT boss tanking in sunwell. kalecgos, brutallus, felmyst (mt), twins, muru (sides), KJ (reflections).
just my opinion though


I have tanked Kalecgos (both through enrage), Felmyst, and going to attempt brut as 40/21 and have had zero problems. I have found the tremendous threat boost to be substantially more worthwhile than Ardent Defender at this point in the game.
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Postby Worldie » Thu Aug 14, 2008 7:26 pm

Brut as 40/21 is LOLOLOAGGRO
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Postby Markoh » Fri Aug 15, 2008 3:20 am

The reason that that 40/21 wouldn't be wise is that avenger's shield is really good for gathering reflections. Since it hits 3 of them it allows your to just judge the 4th and pick them up.

Also since your tanking 4 mobs ardent defender is more useful on this fight b/c you are not really gonna get it leapfrogged so it can help alot.
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