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Postby VikrumthePally » Mon Jun 16, 2008 9:48 am

kalbear wrote:
Judging by these forums I am more than ready to tackle heroics (with CC and not AOE tanking mind you) with a good group. Or as it is very possible did I miss something?


You just dinged 70.

You haven't run most normal instances. You certainly don't have the quest rewards, the rep rewards, or most of the normal drops. You have 10k armor and 10k health.

And you picked a harder heroic.

Do your research, get your gear, then tackle hard stuff. No tank is going into a heroic and succeeding using that gear.


If you go to Lookit's guide to tanking heroics and click the link that suggest what gear to be shooting for you will find that I have almost ALL the pieces the link suggests. So I really don't understand how you can say I don't have the gear or the rep rewards. I have all the KoT rep rewards.

2nd do research? Due to my low number of posts it may look like I am just the occasional browser. I have read almost each and every post in detail.

I guess with my OP I was a little misleading. Let me rephrase I am not looking to be the tank that everyone can depend on for all the hard stuff like all the heroics and kara YET. I have easily tanked each instance all the way through BM normal. I still have a lot of work to do.

All my post was doing was to say hey here I am newly 70 pally and on top of the world and a heroic mob showed me where I stood in terms of his DPS to my DEF. For God's sake I went in alone. I had no intention of "solo'ing the instance" I just wanted to see how hard the mobs hit.

I have easily tanked 9 of the 15 available. So again I don't know what you are talking about.

And the "that gear line" heh I guess you showed me. I was thinking I actually had a really good set of gear to just have hit 70 last night.

Also TBH I didn't ask for one lick of help in my OP. If I wanted advice I would have went to the 5man/heroics forums. I think this should show the intention of my post. Now I am not non appreciative. Targonis offered tips and I gladly accepted! And I am very very thankful for all the replies that have been given. I love this place.

Sorry if this reply comes off harsh. Guess I just took offense to your post. Most likely you meant nothing by it and I just am taking it wrong.

P.S. Again my wow sig is FTL. http://www.wowarmory.com/character-shee ... s&n=Vikrum

11.7k hps and 11.8 armor and 495 def all unbuffed.
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Postby Arcand » Mon Jun 16, 2008 10:20 am

That wasn't aimed at me but I deserved some of it, having flubbed my reading/math when I saw your health.

11.7 unbuffed is sub-leet, but it's too good to be called 'minimal'.

"Vikrum. Sub-leet but too good to be called minimal." :)
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Postby kalbear » Mon Jun 16, 2008 10:24 am

And the "that gear line" heh I guess you showed me. I was thinking I actually had a really good set of gear to just have hit 70 last night.
You do. But it's still not good enough to be tanking most heroics. It's quite sufficient for tanking normal instances.

If you had done your research, you'd know what you need to get into heroics and thrive. If you had done your research you'd know what to expect from heroic ramps. So no, you haven't don't your research on that.

I have easily tanked 9 of the 15 available. So again I don't know what you are talking about.
So you haven't tanked any of the 70 instances, then? You haven't gone through any of the TK instances, SV, Shalls or SLab? If you haven't done those, sorry...tanking Ramps and BF is not comparable to tanking SLab. Even on normal. It also means you don't have a good chestpiece, shoulders, wrist, waist, helm, cloak, neck... I'm not sure what all you've got, gear wise, but chances are it's fairly low.

You probably can tank some heroic like SP if your healer is good and you're really careful about it. I wouldn't want to be the healer when you're tanking those double myrmidon kills, but to each their own.

So back to the original post:
Judging by these forums I am more than ready to tackle heroics (with CC and not AOE tanking mind you) with a good group. Or as it is very possible did I miss something?
You missed something. You don't have the gear to tank it with CC or without CC, not at this stage, unless the rest of the group carries you. Really, here's the deal: you need gear that you would start to tank Kara in to tank most heroics. Not all; SP and UB can be done without it if you have good CC, and Mech can be done without quite that much if you have a lock and an interrupter and skip the flame boss.

ETA: I based my health/armor on your sig. If that's out of date, don't blame me for it.
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Postby Lanicus » Mon Jun 16, 2008 10:42 am

Just to give you a glimmer of hope -- I did almost the exact same thing you did when I started. I geared up in my new blues at level 70 and I had my crystalforged sword, thinking I was unstoppable. I went into heroic ramps and we quit before the first boss because we had wiped 3 times.

Some Kara gear and a few badge pieces later, my healer is asking me to pull 2 or more groups at a time in a place like Botanica or mechanar. I have a lock that runs with me and he likes me to pull 6-8 mobs so he can seed of corruption on them all.

All it takes is a little gear and a lot of practice. Try to develop a core group you run heroics with and you'll be golden. I can't stress that enough having good DPS and a reliable healer will make this process SO much smoother.

Here is my armory for reference:

http://www.wowarmory.com/character-shee ... &n=Lanicus
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Postby iliya » Mon Jun 16, 2008 10:55 am

Gratz on 70.

Though, just to reiterate what's been said already, the group helps, and just give it a bit of time. You already know what to do, it seems, so just keep plugging long and you should be fine. :)

Best of luck and keep it up.
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Postby VikrumthePally » Mon Jun 16, 2008 11:01 am

kalbear wrote:
And the "that gear line" heh I guess you showed me. I was thinking I actually had a really good set of gear to just have hit 70 last night.
You do. But it's still not good enough to be tanking most heroics. It's quite sufficient for tanking normal instances.

If you had done your research, you'd know what you need to get into heroics and thrive. If you had done your research you'd know what to expect from heroic ramps. So no, you haven't don't your research on that.

I have easily tanked 9 of the 15 available. So again I don't know what you are talking about.
So you haven't tanked any of the 70 instances, then? You haven't gone through any of the TK instances, SV, Shalls or SLab? If you haven't done those, sorry...tanking Ramps and BF is not comparable to tanking SLab. Even on normal. It also means you don't have a good chestpiece, shoulders, wrist, waist, helm, cloak, neck... I'm not sure what all you've got, gear wise, but chances are it's fairly low.

You probably can tank some heroic like SP if your healer is good and you're really careful about it. I wouldn't want to be the healer when you're tanking those double myrmidon kills, but to each their own.

So back to the original post:
Judging by these forums I am more than ready to tackle heroics (with CC and not AOE tanking mind you) with a good group. Or as it is very possible did I miss something?
You missed something. You don't have the gear to tank it with CC or without CC, not at this stage, unless the rest of the group carries you. Really, here's the deal: you need gear that you would start to tank Kara in to tank most heroics. Not all; SP and UB can be done without it if you have good CC, and Mech can be done without quite that much if you have a lock and an interrupter and skip the flame boss.

ETA: I based my health/armor on your sig. If that's out of date, don't blame me for it.


Ahh I hate it when this happens. My darn pride is too much to just drop it.

So I am just going to address your post in my order of choosing.

First off my gear and your claim I don't have the gear to do with or w/o CC unless I have a great group to carry me. That is your claim. Oh and to be prepped for Kara should somewhat prep me for heroics.

The sources I am about to post are all from Maintankadin. All all have been credited by the top tanks on this site as accurate and true.

http://www.wowwiki.com/BC_tanking_equip ... paladin%29

I don't expect you to follow up on me to make sure I am not lying. But take it for what it's worth.

Of the total 17 slots available. I have 13 of the "proposed gear to go after" for heroics. So I am missing 4. Big deal. One is a green and the others are still pretty nice items.

http://www.wowwiki.com/BC_tanking_equip ... 9/Karazhan

On that list. Still again pretty darn close to the numbers posted that are needed for Kara.

So I guess by your statement to paraphrase "with or without CC you aren't ready" either you are wrong or the general population of MT is wrong.

Here is a thread I started that pretty much says my current numbers are good for the easier heroic instances.

http://maintankadin.failsafedesign.com/ ... php?t=9603

Ok now on to your next point claiming I haven't done my research.

Hrm you show me a post on these forums that states that when I zone into HF ramps on heroic and pull the first two mobs that each will hit me for 1100-1600 on normal melee swings I'll concede and shut up.

That is what I was looking to find out. That and only that. And by looking to find out I don't mean coming here and posting what I posted in order to find it out. I mean doing what I did. Going into HF ramps on heroic and seeing EXACTLY what they hit for.

Never once did I ask "hey what can I tank" "hey is this instance too hard for me" "hey am I pulling down my group by being the MT in these easy heroics."

Never once did I say "Piss on the last few lvl 70 instances c'mon gang lets go do some heroics."

So as far as you claiming "if I had done my research I'd know what to expect from heroic ramps" blah blah blah.

Well I do know what to expect. Take a look at the thread I just linked above that I started. There are posts in there saying ramps is not easy. So yeah I knew that well before you came along and posted anything. However in all the posts I read and "researched" never once did I see anything telling me exactly how hard the mobs hit for. I am a numbers guy. I wanted to see exactly how much they hit for. I found out too!

Your line about me not having good items in this and that slot. I guess you and again about 99% of the information on this site will just have to agree to disagree.

But you know all of this bickering between you and I (which is what I would say it has come to) is all null in void. You want to tell someone to do research. Back up and read the OP bud. I didn't post this asking for how to tank all the hard heroics, the easy heroics, Kara, or any combination. When tips were offered I said sure throw them at me. It seems to me you are under the impression I came seeking information on "if I am ready to tank all heroics" when in fact I didn't seek anything even remotely close. I come to the general forums to post general stuff. When I am ready to seek out help I will post in the appropriate forums but I will never turn down offered advice whether it be on pace with the subject of my OP or anyone's OP for that matter.

Oh and btw, I never blamed you for it. Again read the original posts in order and you'll see where I stated it (the sig) was wrong. So don't put it on me that you didn't ready the posts and just started throwing what seems to me your 2 cents worth on a topic you presumed you knew about w/o reading all the posts. :?

All in all Kal no beef bro. I just can't have people calling me out. You can feel free to reply to this and quote etc like we've done before. But I am through now. I for sure don't want to rub the people on this site wrong and come off as "that guy."
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Postby VikrumthePally » Mon Jun 16, 2008 11:02 am

Oh and thanks so so much to those who have posted with gratz, and information. Again you guys are great. Sorry I'm chewing up all the bandwidth lol.
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Postby solina » Mon Jun 16, 2008 11:16 am

VikrumthePally wrote:Hrm you show me a post on these forums that states that when I zone into HF ramps on heroic and pull the first two mobs that each will hit me for 1100-1600 on normal melee swings I'll concede and shut up.


http://www.wowwiki.com/Ramparts#Changes_to_Trash

Just sayin.. maintankadin isn't a dungeon guide :)


And grats on 70. And TBH, did you really expect much out of trying to solo a heroic trash pull?
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Postby Talmus » Mon Jun 16, 2008 11:29 am

Congrats on 70!

You're way better geared than I was when I hit 70...I basically solo-quested all the way and did 65-70 in about 10 days so I missed out on doing a lot of instances to get to that point. When I hit 70 I think I had *maybe* 10k hp/armor.

For most people just hitting 70 I'd say take your time, try out the instances on non-heroic first, etc. In your gear I think you'd be fine with most instances with a bit of CC using the tips people gave earlier. I've tanked them with a good group with a bit less before. In fact, I've purposely tanked them with a bit less recently just to take more damage/get more spell damage.

All that said, heroic mobs will destroy you. Even when you have great gear they'll still do a fair amount of damage. That's kind of the point. If they didn't do damage to us we wouldn't need any healing and would therefore run out of mana. Your healer will be able to keep up most likely. At your current gear level I'd bet a good healer could keep you up easily through pulls of a couple mobs (rest being cc'd). When I see things hitting me that hard I just smile...means I can go all out and not worry about the mana.
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Postby kalbear » Mon Jun 16, 2008 11:31 am

The sources I am about to post are all from Maintankadin. All all have been credited by the top tanks on this site as accurate and true.

http://www.wowwiki.com/BC_tanking_equip ... paladin%29

I don't expect you to follow up on me to make sure I am not lying. But take it for what it's worth.
That's a shame, because you're lying.

You don't have the recommended chest piece. Any of them.
You don't have as great a cloak as you could, and it's not enchanted properly.
You don't have the bracers - any of them; you're wearing a green 'of stamina' piece, and it's got +7 stamina on it.
Your gloves have +10 stamina on them.
Your belt is from underbog normal and has green gems. It also is not on the list.
Your rings are not nearly as good as they could be, and are not on that list.
You have one of the two recommended trinkets; one is poor, the other is a insignia of the horde without resilience.

You do have a good sword, shield, and the legs are top notch. The boots are fine, the helm and gloves are fine if not ideal. You're on your way.

Of the total 17 slots available. I have 13 of the "proposed gear to go after" for heroics. So I am missing 4. Big deal. One is a green and the others are still pretty nice items.
As I said above: simply not true.

Again, you can do what you like, and I wish you luck. With your group that is all far better geared than you, you'll probably do well. But you'll be carried, and if you try and pug something chances are it won't go well. If it does - hey, great, I was wrong, and you can be happy knowing that I was simply wrong about that.

Good luck in your first heroic.
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Postby VikrumthePally » Mon Jun 16, 2008 11:35 am

solina wrote:
VikrumthePally wrote:Hrm you show me a post on these forums that states that when I zone into HF ramps on heroic and pull the first two mobs that each will hit me for 1100-1600 on normal melee swings I'll concede and shut up.


http://www.wowwiki.com/Ramparts#Changes_to_Trash

Just sayin.. maintankadin isn't a dungeon guide :)


And grats on 70. And TBH, did you really expect much out of trying to solo a heroic trash pull?


Thank you thank you. Yeah I mean it's one thing to read it. But to actually zone in and see it I just had to for myself. :)

As for what I was expecting no I didn't expect to kill a mob. I didn't expect to accomplish anything. I just expected to go in there and see big hits which I did. The only surprise I got is just how fast my life went down. Again dinging 70 and getting all that new gear I had waiting on me was just a rush. I felt big and bad and went in there thinking I would last just a tad bit longer than I did.

Rofl it was like here we go, frisbee, holy crap I can't get out of the instance fast enough.

I figured it would be more like here we (we being I) go, frisbee, holy crap they hit hard, take a few licks, zone out with 2k hps.

I am big on wow wiki and I have read that link you posted before. I just figured my gear would offset it a bit more than what it did.

Again it was all a high from all the newness.

All in good fun.
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Postby VikrumthePally » Mon Jun 16, 2008 11:37 am

kalbear wrote:Good luck in your first heroic.


Thank you!
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Postby solina » Mon Jun 16, 2008 11:44 am

VikrumthePally wrote:I am big on wow wiki and I have read that link you posted before. I just figured my gear would offset it a bit more than what it did.


Well, 11871 armor = 52.93% mitigation on a Lvl 70 mob. So, that 3000-5000 on cloth becomes 1412-2353. Math = fun :)
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Postby Spectrum » Mon Jun 16, 2008 1:29 pm

I had a rude awakening too: When you first start heroics you can't AE tank and you can't solo the mobs.

The first time I did a heroic it was SP and I was put in my place. I was probably at about 12k hp/14k armor. I was rather timid about starting so I over-geared.

The thing about heroics as a pally is that you actually might need CC. From 60 to 70 I was just AEing every pack I could unless I was a few levels too low for the instance or it was a huge pull with casters. There were more than a few places on normal where I didn't notice the healer went afk and I was regularly sitting down to take more damage.

Then I hopped into SP and pulled the first Bogstrok pack. Instead of hitting for 400 like I expected they were hitting for 1k. We BARELY survived that pack. After that I used my mage and hunter and things went fine.

It's still hard switching modes from AE tanking to 1-2 target tanking. It's especially frustrating that everyone seems to expect you to be in full epics too.
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Postby Salt » Mon Jun 16, 2008 2:33 pm

One of my good friends recently leveled a Paladin specifically to tank. I told him what I tell everyone who talks about paladin tanking to gear up paladin tanking.

"My healing gear was better than my tanking gear for a long time."
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