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Redoubt

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Postby Lore » Mon Apr 14, 2008 12:27 pm

10% block chance would be 100% worthless for any tankadin in mid-T6 gear, except when AOE tanking.

So that would be a hefty nerf.
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Postby Sabindeus » Mon Apr 14, 2008 12:30 pm

Norrath wrote:
Sabindeus wrote:I'm not sure I understand your argument. You seem to be saying that Redoubt is unbalanced because it is useless in some situations, but very good in others. That would seem to pre-suppose that talents must, for some reason, be equally useful in all conceivable situations, or at least close to it. Why would you think that? Or am I misinterpreting this?

You're misinterpreting. I'm saying it's imbalanced in one specific situation, and completely useless in others. It means that it's a very situationally powerful talent. This doesn't mean it's imbalanced overall, it just means I'd rather have something that is more or less equally useful in most/all situations. It's not a big deal, it's just a preference.


Ah, a preference. The way you stated it, it made it sound like you were trying to make an argument for why it should be changed based on it being unbalanced.

Given that AoE tanking is a large percentage of what I do when I'm tanking, I'd have to disagree with your opinion.

Basically I guess I take issue with your use of the term "one specific situation". Single target tanking is "one specific situation" too, and the two phrases are disjoint sets and thus pretty much cover all possible events.
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Postby Sharlos » Mon Apr 14, 2008 3:55 pm

Lore wrote:10% block chance would be 100% worthless for any tankadin in mid-T6 gear, except when AOE tanking.

So that would be a hefty nerf.


For a tankadin in mid teir 6 how is the current roubt any more useful?


But I think redoubt is fine as is. If you want to give non-shield wearers something, change Imp Dev Aura to Devotion and make it cause all your auras to reduce the damage taken by crit strikes by 10% in addition to 40% increase to imp devotion.
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Postby Levantine » Mon Apr 14, 2008 3:56 pm

Sharlos wrote:
Lore wrote:10% block chance would be 100% worthless for any tankadin in mid-T6 gear, except when AOE tanking.

So that would be a hefty nerf.


For a tankadin in mid teir 6 how is the current roubt any more useful?


Mid T6 Paladins AoE tank, no?
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Postby Norrath » Mon Apr 14, 2008 4:28 pm

Lore wrote:10% block chance would be 100% worthless for any tankadin in mid-T6 gear, except when AOE tanking.

So that would be a hefty nerf.

True, I hadn't considered that -- then again, 10% block chance is pretty decent when AE-tanking.

-20% block chance isn't going to hurt a mid-T6 paladin very much, I should think.
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Postby Spectrum » Mon Apr 14, 2008 4:56 pm

What if they changed it to an armor increase? It would then be useful for people with and without shields.

Is it really that useful to have the random 30% block once you're already uncrushable with HS?
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Postby thorn » Mon Apr 14, 2008 5:19 pm

Improved Devotion Aura
Increases the armor bonus of your Devotion Aura by 40%.


versus:

Redoubt
Increases your total armor passively by 345.


wonder which one i would choose. ;)
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Postby Norrath » Mon Apr 14, 2008 5:28 pm

Spectrum wrote:What if they changed it to an armor increase? It would then be useful for people with and without shields.

Is it really that useful to have the random 30% block once you're already uncrushable with HS?

When AE-tanking, yes. Holy Shield only has 8 charges; when AE-tanking, they'll be gone very fast. Redoubt helps with the rest.
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Postby Aarek » Mon Apr 14, 2008 5:33 pm

Norrath wrote:
10% flat block would still be more powerful in AE-tanking situations than in single-target situations, but it'd also be useful in single-target situations. It's the best solution that I can see.


It would never bet 10% flat block. The warrior (almost) equivalent is 5% and an effect on block. At most they would change it to 5% and a proc or something similar
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Postby Sparti » Mon Apr 14, 2008 10:50 pm

Norrath wrote:
Sabindeus wrote:I'm not sure I understand your argument. You seem to be saying that Redoubt is unbalanced because it is useless in some situations, but very good in others. That would seem to pre-suppose that talents must, for some reason, be equally useful in all conceivable situations, or at least close to it. Why would you think that? Or am I misinterpreting this?

You're misinterpreting. I'm saying it's imbalanced in one specific situation, and completely useless in others. It means that it's a very situationally powerful talent. This doesn't mean it's imbalanced overall, it just means I'd rather have something that is more or less equally useful in most/all situations. It's not a big deal, it's just a preference.


You do realize unbalanced can work either way, right?

Something really, really bad is just as unbalanced as something really really good, you know...
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Postby Norrath » Tue Apr 15, 2008 1:46 am

Sparti wrote:You do realize unbalanced can work either way, right?

Something really, really bad is just as unbalanced as something really really good, you know...


... and what does that have to do with anything? Yes, I do realize this means that the talent can be called 'imbalanced' at all times. I simply worded it the way I did to avoid confusion.

Aarek wrote:It would never bet 10% flat block. The warrior (almost) equivalent is 5% and an effect on block. At most they would change it to 5% and a proc or something similar

The warrior equivalent could easily be considered as good as 10% block. So I don't see why it is impossible.
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Postby Moses » Tue Apr 15, 2008 3:52 am

I don't think 10% block would be all that imbalanced. Personally I don't like the way it is now, although now on average it gives 15% block (10% proc for 5 hits). For me the advantage would be that I (and blizz for that matter) could itemize tankadin gear easier if we had another 10% towards uncrushable.

I did kinda like the idea of an increase in armor. Possibly if it only increased the armor from your shield, maybe 10-20%ish. At least that would scale really well with gear for all applications.

I tell you what my dream would be (it won't happen because holy shield is a lot lower in the tree than redoubt) gives a "20/40/60/80/100% chance to reduce magic damage received by your block value while holy shield is active"
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Postby ScribeShanky » Tue Apr 15, 2008 3:58 am

My dream would be to remove the current proc, and let 5/5 Redoubt give the Paladin a 50% chance to regenerate 1% total mana after a successful Block.

This may be TOTALLY OP for the first tier of talents, though. >_>
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Postby Khayne » Tue Apr 15, 2008 4:46 am

ScribeShanky wrote:My dream would be to remove the current proc, and let 5/5 Redoubt give the Paladin a 50% chance to regenerate 1% total mana after a successful Block.

This may be TOTALLY OP for the first tier of talents, though. >_>


would attleast be more op for holy.

for us 1% of mana isn´t even that much, it´s maybe 60mana in raid buffs?
for holy spec we´d be talking 100+. If you want mana regen from blocks as redoubt, wish for fixed amount rather than % as the skill would be balanced for pvp (so holy), which means that the % would be pitiful on our pitiful mana bars.

i´d like if our redoubt was 20% instead of 30% and had 5% guaranteed.
Would make gearing easier for lower level gearers and give freedom to gearing.

On same change i´d like 5/5 Devotion aura "The amount of armor on targets affected by devotion aura is increased by 5%"

750-1k armor to warriors and us wouldn´t be nothing to sneeze at unlike the 344 you get now.

might even need to think for a second which one i want, redoubt and shield spec. or allmost 1k armor to whole tank squad.
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Postby Noradin » Tue Apr 15, 2008 4:52 am

I'd like:


Redoubt Rank 5
Requires Shields
Damaging melee and ranged attacks against you have a 10% chance to increase your chance to block and to parry by 15% each. Lasts 10 sec or until you blocked or parried 8 attacks.
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