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Redoubt

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Redoubt

Postby Dianora » Mon Apr 14, 2008 10:22 am

Over at Blizzard Paladin forum, a Retribution Paladin has a stupid idea on making Redoubt more Retribution useful.

I toss in my $0.02 and came up with:

Current;
Redoubt Rank 5
Requires Shields
Damaging melee and ranged attacks against you have a 10% chance to increase your chance to block by 30%. Lasts 10 sec or 5 blocks.

OP:
Redoubt Rank 5
Requires Shields
Damaging melee and ranged attacks against you have a 10% chance to increase your chance to block by 30% and increase block value by 5%. Lasts 10 sec or 5 blocks.

Each point in Redoubt has a chance to increase block chance by 6% and block value by 1%.
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Postby thorn » Mon Apr 14, 2008 10:42 am

i think your idea secretly makes it more useful to >protection< paladins, rather than retribution paladins. ;)

how about:

Redoubt Rank 5
Damaging melee and ranged attacks against you have a 10% chance to increase your chance to block by 30% and your expertise by 30. Lasts 10 sec.

this way, it will help him while using a 2h as well (notice there is no "requires shields") and gives the paladin a benefit that, while kinda nice, should be negligible to him because he should already be stacking enough expertise so that he doesn't have to rely on redoubt, which is exactly what we do with shield block rating vs redoubt.

i think this retains the same "feel" of redoubt: a talent that can be a nice bonus, but is really just something you take so you can unlock the next tier in the prot tree. ;)
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Postby Jarenien » Mon Apr 14, 2008 10:50 am

Redoubt is a Tankadin ability only.

Anything that increases block rating/%/value for a retadin is completely useless, because if I ever saw a retadin using a shield, I would kindly ask him/her to uninstall the game and cancel their account.

What a retribution paladin would want is something similar, but where damaging melee/ranged attacks have a chance to increase your AP (or crit rating) by say 15% for 10 seconds. Maybe call this ability something like 'Revenge' or 'Payback' or something along those lines.
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Postby honorshammer » Mon Apr 14, 2008 10:50 am

As long as they keep the proc I'm fine with it. Some suggestions have them removing the proc for a static 5% increase in Block Chance.
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Postby Norrath » Mon Apr 14, 2008 10:56 am

I'd remove the proc for a static 10%. >_>
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Postby Snake-Aes » Mon Apr 14, 2008 11:00 am

I wouldn't. It's a significant amount of our bv-mitigation in AoE tanking.
I wouldn't mind it at 20% with a 5% static block chance, though!
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Postby Norrath » Mon Apr 14, 2008 11:05 am

Snake-Aes wrote:I wouldn't. It's a significant amount of our bv-mitigation in AoE tanking.
I wouldn't mind it at 20% with a 5% static block chance, though!


Redoubt is imbalanced in AE-tanking situations, but useless elsewhere. I'd rather have something I can rely on.
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Postby Snake-Aes » Mon Apr 14, 2008 11:08 am

It's not imbalanced. It's what makes our damage mitigation good on the area we're supposed to excel at. 20% block chance is just as good as 30% in aoe, add in 5%~ static block and you have the perfect mix.
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Postby Spectrum » Mon Apr 14, 2008 11:21 am

Most of the time aren't we blocking everything that isn't a dodge anyway?

And since it is a certain number of charges, it will only work on half the attacks on you regardless of how many hits you're taking. It will come up a lot more in AE, but will also get used up more quickly.
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Postby Sabindeus » Mon Apr 14, 2008 11:29 am

definitely agreeing with Snake-Aes here. It's not unbalanced and it should not be changed. Ever. For any reason.

You want a Tier 1 talent to fuck with, take a look at Imp. Devo Aura.
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Postby Sabindeus » Mon Apr 14, 2008 11:31 am

Jarenien wrote:Redoubt is a Tankadin ability only.

Anything that increases block rating/%/value for a retadin is completely useless, because if I ever saw a retadin using a shield, I would kindly ask him/her to uninstall the game and cancel their account.

What a retribution paladin would want is something similar, but where damaging melee/ranged attacks have a chance to increase your AP (or crit rating) by say 15% for 10 seconds. Maybe call this ability something like 'Revenge' or 'Payback' or something along those lines.


Also to be fair, I would definitely approve of a Ret paladin wearing a shield if he or she were tanking.
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Postby thorn » Mon Apr 14, 2008 11:34 am

Jarenien wrote:Redoubt is a Tankadin ability only.

Anything that increases block rating/%/value for a retadin is completely useless, because if I ever saw a retadin using a shield, I would kindly ask him/her to uninstall the game and cancel their account.

What a retribution paladin would want is something similar, but where damaging melee/ranged attacks have a chance to increase your AP (or crit rating) by say 15% for 10 seconds. Maybe call this ability something like 'Revenge' or 'Payback' or something along those lines.


the point is that ret paladins have to spec into it because they want to get precision. they could spec for improved devotion aura, but they'd never use that since they have sanctity on all the time...

i would say 15% increased ap and crit rating would be nice, but i think that's kindof OP... and it would almost turn into a have-to-have talent for ret paladins at that point. if you want to keep the same "feel" of redoubt, i'd say make it give you something that you would already be capped on like hit or expertise, kindof the way it is now with us and block rating vs redoubt.

as far as a ret paladin, i think i would find a use for redoubt just the way it is already. in a pvp situation, if it procced (which it can proc while wearing a 2h) and i was fighting a rogue, you can be damn sure i would switch to my PLG for that quick five blocks and stack some poison on them, and then switch back to my 2h. i'm pretty sure the ticking poison from PLG will break stealth...

in a pve situation, let's say i'm ret and dpsing a za run with a warrior mt. i'll bet my job during the eagle gauntlet would probably be to consecrate the eagle's, while wearing my shield... and redoubt would most likely proc because of all the hits i was taking. a ret paladin, btw, can make a perfect offtank for za, since both bosses that you need an OT on do not crush. =P
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Postby Norrath » Mon Apr 14, 2008 12:15 pm

thorn wrote:i would say 15% increased ap and crit rating would be nice, but i think that's kindof OP... and it would almost turn into a have-to-have talent for ret paladins at that point.

Thorn, take a look at the Ret tree.

Find a talent that has a similar function to Redoubt and has a name along the lines of 'Revenge' or 'Payback'. Perhaps one that starts with 'V'?

Snake-Aes wrote:It's not imbalanced. It's what makes our damage mitigation good on the area we're supposed to excel at. 20% block chance is just as good as 30% in aoe, add in 5%~ static block and you have the perfect mix.

It is imbalanced. In those situations, it's practically like having +30% free block. Not fully, but almost.

10% flat block would still be more powerful in AE-tanking situations than in single-target situations, but it'd also be useful in single-target situations. It's the best solution that I can see.

Sabindeus wrote:definitely agreeing with Snake-Aes here. It's not unbalanced and it should not be changed. Ever. For any reason.

I disagree. Currently Redoubt is useless for any situation where you are not tanking huge groups, but when you are, it's almost constantly up.
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Postby Sabindeus » Mon Apr 14, 2008 12:17 pm

Norrath wrote:
thorn wrote:i would say 15% increased ap and crit rating would be nice, but i think that's kindof OP... and it would almost turn into a have-to-have talent for ret paladins at that point.

Thorn, take a look at the Ret tree.

Find a talent that has a similar function to Redoubt and has a name along the lines of 'Revenge' or 'Payback'. Perhaps one that starts with 'V'?

Snake-Aes wrote:It's not imbalanced. It's what makes our damage mitigation good on the area we're supposed to excel at. 20% block chance is just as good as 30% in aoe, add in 5%~ static block and you have the perfect mix.

It is imbalanced. In those situations, it's practically like having +30% free block. Not fully, but almost.

10% flat block would still be more powerful in AE-tanking situations than in single-target situations, but it'd also be useful in single-target situations. It's the best solution that I can see.

Sabindeus wrote:definitely agreeing with Snake-Aes here. It's not unbalanced and it should not be changed. Ever. For any reason.

I disagree. Currently Redoubt is useless for any situation where you are not tanking huge groups, but when you are, it's almost constantly up.


I'm not sure I understand your argument. You seem to be saying that Redoubt is unbalanced because it is useless in some situations, but very good in others. That would seem to pre-suppose that talents must, for some reason, be equally useful in all conceivable situations, or at least close to it. Why would you think that? Or am I misinterpreting this?
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Postby Norrath » Mon Apr 14, 2008 12:20 pm

Sabindeus wrote:I'm not sure I understand your argument. You seem to be saying that Redoubt is unbalanced because it is useless in some situations, but very good in others. That would seem to pre-suppose that talents must, for some reason, be equally useful in all conceivable situations, or at least close to it. Why would you think that? Or am I misinterpreting this?

You're misinterpreting. I'm saying it's imbalanced in one specific situation, and completely useless in others. It means that it's a very situationally powerful talent. This doesn't mean it's imbalanced overall, it just means I'd rather have something that is more or less equally useful in most/all situations. It's not a big deal, it's just a preference.
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