Post your Frustrations.

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Re: Post your Frustrations.

Postby Newsom » Mon Dec 16, 2013 1:10 pm

Monk co-tank wants to reroll paladin. I really don't see the point of having 3 plate tanks, of which 2 are paladins. -.-
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Re: Post your Frustrations.

Postby Klaudandus » Mon Dec 16, 2013 1:14 pm

because you play what is fun? *shocking*
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Re: Post your Frustrations.

Postby Newsom » Mon Dec 16, 2013 1:23 pm

Klaudandus wrote:because you play what is fun? *shocking*


Well, we most likely can't both play the same thing. I don't have the energy to fight for my spot at the moment. Plus it means we have to go recruit a brewmaster regardless... dick move in my book. We recruited him specifically to play brewmaster.
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Re: Post your Frustrations.

Postby Sagara » Mon Dec 16, 2013 2:01 pm

Honestly, that's what alt raids are for - playing fun alts. If you're going for high ranks, you have to accept a little compromise in your fun (like you already do with fixed playtimes, preparation time, study time and whatnot). Most serious guilds have a couple of nights of breathers that often include alt raids for silly fun.

As a player, I wouldn't have dreamt of maining another toon without at least a major patch in the coming weeks/months (and only switch at that specific point), and a very long discussion with the raid team. They're counting not only on me as a player, but on my toon, his gear and abilities. I got like to be taken as Paladin in a guild with another Pally tank, but that's because the Offs accepted the compromise, and the other Pally was completely kosher with it.

As a GM/RL, I had always been clear that I frowned (but did not outright refuse) main switching mid-patch, because even if we were casuals, one player having his way could mean no raids for -anyone- for weeks, screwing 9 extra people for the sake of one.

Seriously, it's a dick move. Less so than had he decided to go, say, Warlock, but definitly more so than admitting he didn't have fun on his Brewmaster, and ask for opportunities, and if none were available, bow out of the Heroic raiding. There's a nuance between "not having fun and finding solutions" and "being a dick and having one's way at the expense of the rest of the raid/guild".
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Re: Post your Frustrations.

Postby Amirya » Mon Dec 16, 2013 2:16 pm

Well, if he can no longer fulfill his commitment to be a Brewmaster, then you can no longer fulfill your commitment to provide him a guaranteed raid spot...
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Re: Post your Frustrations.

Postby Klaudandus » Mon Dec 16, 2013 2:30 pm

That seams like a reasonable solution. =P
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Re: Post your Frustrations.

Postby Era » Mon Dec 16, 2013 2:54 pm

Amirya wrote:Well, if he can no longer fulfill his commitment to be a Brewmaster, then you can no longer fulfill your commitment to provide him a guaranteed raid spot...


Well, if he can no longer fulfil his commitment to bring the kegs, then you can no longer fulfil your commitment to provide him a guaranteed invite to the party.
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Re: Post your Frustrations.

Postby Sagara » Mon Dec 16, 2013 2:55 pm

That actually opens an interesting debate:

It's fairly obvious to all of us that we want to have fun when playing (WoW or otherwise). Still we accept non-fun rules and limitations (or don't, as our Brewmaster has proven).

Going on a limb, it's also basically what stops us from being constant proof of the G.I.F.T. theory - we choose to stifle our base instincts and "play nice", but why is that?

Is this linked to an idea of obsequience to a greater power? Because a team of players can take the ball away from us? Or is there a deeper point to be made that we realize we need to compromise and accept the natural paradox of "less fun to have more fun".

Sorry, late night and no hearthstone just supercharged my philosophical side :oops:
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Re: Post your Frustrations.

Postby Klaudandus » Mon Dec 16, 2013 3:13 pm

I think my main point is that this is why I would probably not fit at all in a heroic raid/guild -- Me and my buddies are too lax and are more about the social aspect (ie, having fun) than fidgeting about raid comp.

Perhaps why I raise an eyebrow at this is because he wants to continue fulfilling the same type of role (tank) although with a different toon. True, there would be a setback in having to regear that toon, but if if the big stink is about raid comp, rather than raid role, well... didn't Blizz said it should be about bringing the player, not the toon. *Yeah, being a bit facetious here*


As for the whole philosophical thing about the Social Contract, well... let's say I can do whatever I want, and I take a 2x4 and hit someone over the head and steal their wallet, but it also means someone could do that and worse to me -- hence why we kind of restrain ourselves in our daily lives just so we can go on about our business.

I think the problem is that some people attribute this "social contract" to religion; that without it, we would not be able to be social, that if you're an atheist, there is no way you could be moral.
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Re: Post your Frustrations.

Postby Sagara » Mon Dec 16, 2013 3:35 pm

Seems some people haven't even read their basics on Nietsche. Sur, the guy was a massive dick, but he made serIous points as to why humans aren't necessarily assholes when set free.

Wait.did you just drag me in one of your political thingies??

Back to wow then! I think you're overdoing it a bit - many serious guilds are not quite as harsh, while other are probably even harsher (I can imagine some guilds push to have specific rerolls available for class stacking). Another assinine thing is the guy went from Leather to Plate and changing Token type, meanong even more gearing headache for the leadership.

I guess you need to have led a team for a bit to realize how annoying it can be to make something work out of 9 cats meowing between your legs for the tasty, tasty cat food of Loot.
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Re: Post your Frustrations.

Postby Nooska » Mon Dec 16, 2013 3:36 pm

To answer Sag's question, (for myself), I think it also has to do with teh commintment we generally make when applying to / joining a raid / guild - we want to be treated well, so we, in general, treat the others well.

As to switching, sure, its been done, and I've experienced it quite a few times, but I've never seen an issue arise, because the people wanting to swith usually started by saying so and bringing their alt (to be main) to runs where it was immediately possible to bring it (be that farmyfarm runs or alt runs or whatever) to gear up. Everyone also accepted (generally) that on those runs, the to-be-main had a slight priority on goods that would help the raid when it was the main.
Add to that that we have generally had officers who have been willing to switch roles and classes (not just specs) to suit the raids needs (and not just officers, reg members too).

I have been on the other end once - in Cata, when I got sick and tired of being a hunter in T11 (I felt I didn't provide enough dps, and that the roles I could fill were gimmicks that actually screwed the raid over when I wasn't there - like pet tanking the skeletions on nefarian in P1 - it worked like a charm, but the raid was stuck on P1 when I wasn't there).
I asked to start playing Mooska for heals (Chimaeron was obvious for an extra healer) - this being T11, I just made sure to be preraid equipped and it was the same (gearwise) as if we had a new recruited healer.
Ended up tanking a bit on the side, and when FL rolled around I had retired from the raid - partly due to being denied switching to tank or healer (they didn't want to loose me on hunter I was told) and partly because - fed up with char means I'm not enjoying the raiding and not providing my best. New tier rolled around and I was retired - raid team lost a tank, and I offered to tank for the team till they aquired a new tank that could take over (fast forward to heroic T13 where we ended at.. 6/8 (I missed the kill of Warmaster, sadly) and still hadn't gotten another reliable tank.

Sometimes I think if only I had stayed tank we would have had it so much easier in T14 - but being unable to come at least 3 raids per month (with 3 raids per week) was too much, as I was going to be (co)raid leading - so I went back to DPS...
(Talking about it, I'm thinking about dusting off Mooska, who is still in Org, still in her T13 (partly heroic), Tmogged to T1+Blackguard and Force Reactive disk...)
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Re: Post your Frustrations.

Postby Era » Mon Dec 16, 2013 5:18 pm

I think "fun" is a very malleable term. I, for one, seriously did have fun as a GM/RL of heroic progression, going through logs and fidgeting with both class/spec distributions, loot optimisations, graphs and tables and numbers and numbers and numbers. I also find mathematics fun. Not just fancy physics, astronomy, chemistry and the other things with bells and whistles, but also pure mathematics and all the implications its existence and functionality brings with it. Fun is a deceivingly complicated term, not to mention about as individual as individual gets! :lol:
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Re: Post your Frustrations.

Postby Teranoid » Tue Dec 17, 2013 1:22 pm

When I got tired of my shaman I just stopped raiding entirely.

If I'm not going to fill the role of what I signed up for I'm not going to upset the balance of the group by demanding they let me play something else.

Then again I'm not selfish and really don't care about loot when its the end of an expansion and in months will be rendered ultimately useless :D
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Re: Post your Frustrations.

Postby Rhiannon » Tue Dec 17, 2013 6:23 pm

Klaudandus wrote:I think my main point is that this is why I would probably not fit at all in a heroic raid/guild -- Me and my buddies are too lax and are more about the social aspect (ie, having fun) than fidgeting about raid comp.

Perhaps why I raise an eyebrow at this is because he wants to continue fulfilling the same type of role (tank) although with a different toon. True, there would be a setback in having to regear that toon, but if if the big stink is about raid comp, rather than raid role, well... didn't Blizz said it should be about bringing the player, not the toon. *Yeah, being a bit facetious here*


Newsom's in a hardcore progress oriented raiding guild iirc. I seem to recall Apex often floating around in world top 10-20, sometimes higher, though I've not been following the raiding scene in the last couple of tiers. So his situation is not comparable to even most guilds that manage to fully clear raids on heroic before the next tier comes out; let alone guilds who don't aim for that level of progression.

Optimising gear acquisition and distribution is a significant issue in the first few weeks of any tier for those who treat progression as a competition. Every item that gets disenchanted or goes to someone's rarely used off-spec because you're lacking a primary user for it is a waste that costs your raid performance, and the more competitively you play, the more gaming drop probabilities is a consideration.

And tanks are not all equal for all things. Diversity is almost always better - more options are almost always good. Going from two different tanks to two of the same tank, regardless of the classes, will almost always hamstring performance at the bleeding edge, unless a particular raid tier is designed and balanced exceptionally poorly.

Remember that fun is not objective, and your play style is not the only way to have fun while raiding. I'm sure Newson gets a great deal of enjoyment from raiding in his environment a lot of the time.
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Re: Post your Frustrations.

Postby Klaudandus » Tue Dec 17, 2013 7:53 pm

I did say I was being facetious
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Re: Post your Frustrations.

Postby Sagara » Wed Dec 18, 2013 12:02 am

Klaudandus wrote:I did say I was being facetious


I couldn't honestly tell this time around, although I guess I should have expected that.
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Re: Post your Frustrations.

Postby Jabari » Wed Dec 18, 2013 12:43 am

So that was a fun day in-game. :(

- 5 characters for Celestials and Ordos. No drops. Used a couple of coins too.

- 2 chars through Flex 1, both still need both caster trinkets (dps bindings, healer prison). Nothing. Didn't get a single drop at all, actually.

- Then the really fun part. Someone puts in trade "Need one DPS for SoO, doing first 6 heroic. 550+, know fights, etc." My shaman is good enough for that, so I jump in. We wipe a couple times on Immerseus (someone lagged out and got Swirled, someone spaced out and got too many stacks, stuff like that), but got it cleanly after that. Bindings drops. Both other caster DPS already have it, so I roll need, and get outrolled by the Resto Druid (for offset), and they all say that it's kosher. After that, I get a whisper that their last core person (who had told them he couldn't make it) had logged on and was it ok if they brought him in.

So now not only did I get gypped out of a great trinket (IMO), I'm now locked and can't run my shaman on normal either this week. Wonderful. :(
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Re: Post your Frustrations.

Postby Newsom » Wed Dec 18, 2013 2:04 am

Thanks for that spot on post Rhiannon.

But yeah. I talked to the GM about it and while he somewhat agreed that it's not ideal to have 2 of the same tank, he also pointed out that it's a loooong way still until the expansion and it doesn't matter one bit what people play during end of expansion farm. I'll worry about it when we're closer to release. A lot can happen until then.
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Re: Post your Frustrations.

Postby Klaudandus » Wed Dec 18, 2013 5:10 am

Sagara wrote:
Klaudandus wrote:I did say I was being facetious


I couldn't honestly tell this time around, although I guess I should have expected that.
Put your [facetious] banners in your posts dammit!


It's right there! At the end! =O
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Re: Post your Frustrations.

Postby Teranoid » Thu Dec 19, 2013 5:29 pm

How appropriately named this achievement is titled: [Going To Need A Bigger Bag]

Oh I'm gonna need a bigger bag alright. A bigger bag to carry to bodies of whatever idiot devs decided this shouldn't be account-wide and be based around rares that have a nonexistent drop rate provided you can even get to them before someone sneezes on them and they die. >:|
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Re: Post your Frustrations.

Postby Darielle » Thu Dec 19, 2013 8:23 pm

Thanks for that spot on post Rhiannon.

But yeah. I talked to the GM about it and while he somewhat agreed that it's not ideal to have 2 of the same tank, he also pointed out that it's a loooong way still until the expansion and it doesn't matter one bit what people play during end of expansion farm. I'll worry about it when we're closer to release. A lot can happen until then.


Plus for all you know, he'll change his mind based on what happens in the Beta anyway, not to mention your other Plate tank might quit, you might find yourself disgusted with Paladins, and half your raid might shuffle around anyway resulting in more or less Leather/Plate users.

4:23pm on a Friday, I'm out of here.
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Re: Post your Frustrations.

Postby theckhd » Fri Dec 20, 2013 9:00 am

Newsom wrote:
Klaudandus wrote:because you play what is fun? *shocking*


Well, we most likely can't both play the same thing. I don't have the energy to fight for my spot at the moment. Plus it means we have to go recruit a brewmaster regardless... dick move in my book. We recruited him specifically to play brewmaster.


No reason you can't use two prot paladins. We do it. Admittedly, we don't clear content as quickly as you do either, but we only raid 2 days a week.

Rhiannon's point about loot distribution is a good one, though. In a top 50 guild you're definitely shooting yourself in the foot to run two paladin tanks.
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Re: Post your Frustrations.

Postby Worldie » Fri Dec 20, 2013 9:53 am

Well with new itemization in 6.0, does it really make a difference if you have 2 palas, or 2 between pala-war-dk tanks?
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Re: Post your Frustrations.

Postby theckhd » Fri Dec 20, 2013 11:27 am

Worldie wrote:Well with new itemization in 6.0, does it really make a difference if you have 2 palas, or 2 between pala-war-dk tanks?


From an itemization standpoint no. Arguably it isn't much different from now if you don't have any strength DPS. It's more the versatility that you gain by having two different tanks with different mechanics. There are relatively few fights where 2 paladins really break the encounter. There are far more where not having a different tanking class's ability would be a hindrance.
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Re: Post your Frustrations.

Postby bldavis » Fri Dec 20, 2013 12:18 pm

a bunch of IRL crap piled up on me, and something pushed it over the edge last night in raid..

i probably have a few bridges to try and rebuild now
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